room treatment - how to

[yoke]

Hi all
I'm at the end of diy journey (like it's ever gonna end ), and as I see only thing left is to make some room treatment for better room acoustics
but have no idea where to start
what to do

my apartment is small, as you can see from the drawings...total of 43m2
basically it's living space (3,5mx6,2m) open to the kitchen and entry lobby...
with couple windows
and plain concrete walls

right now I have no carpet on the floor or any picture on the wall, it's basicly as in 3D model...

so I need some advice what to do, what to place and where, some bass traps, some diffusers, some paintings
what to read
where to start

here are some plans of my apartment, with loudspeakers in ''red''

and 3d model for better understaning of ''open space''


any advise is appreciated
thanks

 

[yoke]

some more pictures of echo room

 

[scottjoplin]

Hello. What problem do you have with the bass?

 

[jameshillj]

You're really going to have to measure your room to save a lot of trial and error experiments as there's a very different load on the left and right speakers and I think this will not just affect the bass (as Scott mentioned) but the mids too

Interestingly, the right speaker doesn't have a sidewall (apart from the alcove corner) so very little 'first reflections' (no side wall) and your left speaker has a window that also presents lower bass impedance (ie, no bass corner gain but has a close sidewall that might need some absorbtion - perhaps try a blanket/doona with a couple broom handles spaced a bit away from wall surface to see if the effect is desired ...

A curious thing to try - put a blanket/doona/etc over the tv screen when playing some familiar music and see if this effects the sound much - generally, it does, so a purpose built lightweight cover can be easily organized or incorporate a diffuser in that place

 

[PRR]

Without thinking: I'd want 4 inches (100mm) of fuzz ALL over the three walls of the alcove. You need more total absorption than this, in an all-concrete room this size, and that's a good place for a down-payment. And it has space for thick fuzz which will absorb down to midbass. So will the sofa. But carpet only absorbs the highs. THICK theatrical window drapes can be more broadband but are too expensive for home.

This is James' "blanket over TV" idea taken further, so start with the thickest comforter you can find and hear any difference, to get the idea.

It may tend to be bassy because the concrete will support bass (unlike dry-wall) and thick-enough fluff will be objectionable for a living space. (Mix-studios can give up 20% of room volume for absorption; apartment dwellers can't spare the space.) Electronic EQ may be needed. Maybe only -1 on the Bass knob, though snazzy digital has become too cheap to avoid.

After that: IMHO there's no right answer. The room is not-large and lop-sided. I've worked in worse; hated it.

 

[yoke]

Thank you all...

I just got speakers back from painting, and I'm reworking bass amplifier, so it will take like 2 weeks before I will be able to make some measurements...

can't tell if it's just bass problem that Scott mention, am thinking that I have to do the room treatment in general
I notice that left speaker have a little more bass...but can't tell for shure...will take some more critical listening

So, by your replay and advices it look like I'm #%$#
the room is terrible for audio setup, but...
let's see what I can do...by yours replay ;

- I can place some ''painting'' on the left wall - was thinking about print work (that looks like painting) on a wood frame and some foam or thermal wool ''under'' the painting...

something like on the second picture

I can place one on the left and one on the right wall (one opposite to another) ?

- The other step is to cover TV - well I can place some cloth over it...make some frame and just place it over TV when I'm listening music...that would not be hard to live with


- Will there be any benefit to place some of those wood blocks with different higts, like on third picture, and if, where should I place it ? ( I think I can do it in diy version )

And what software should I use for room measurement ?
I will take some measurement and place results, but as I mention it will take some time

Thanks

 

[jameshillj]

As you mentioned working on your bass amp, you're used to doing diy, so making acoustical filters and diffusers will be well within your grasp - but, it'll probably be new territory unless you're involved with pro-audio, so it'll take a bit of time to sort out a lot of well meaning terms (mine too) when talking about room acoustics

As'PR' mentioned, the uneven room will make things a bit awkward, especially when you get to measuring freq response and the decay times - the best advice I can offer about this is to take your time and only change one thing at a time

One thing I can be a bit more definite about is to make your own absorber panels - the fancy profiled ones are not as effective and not cheap - the 4" thick thermal wool that you mentioned, covered by a decorative acoustically transparent print, can work quite effectively down to maybe 120Hz - you may find that the freq reflected from the close sidewall maybe high enough to use just 2" thick material

The wooden block diffusers (known as Skylines, or 2D Schroeder diffuser) are very useful things indeed but generally, after the bass is sorted

I hope I haven't just added to your confusion ...

 

[yoke]

Thanks James,
Jea, I'm into diy (my whole setup is diy, speakers,amplifiers,dsp...wheel the last dsp is from Tranquilitybass (diyaudio member) , so...

But this room acoustics is new to me...and somehow I feel like it's over my head

so for the start, I will make two ''paintings'' with 2'' fill (like 5cm - thermal wool or something like that) and see the results...

it look like it's gonna be long painful journey

PRR give me push in right direction saying that he worked in worse and he hated it maybe I should buy new apartment

 

[jameshillj]

So you're used to organizing things - that's good

Improving a room's sound isn't something that happens overnight, ever, even if you throw a lot of money at it like some people do

You've got the main room that's 6 metre by 3.5 with an alcove kitchen plus hall on one side, and an additional doorway to access the bedroom volume - you do have rigid walls but some windows to avoid excessive bass gain - the wall next to the right hand speaker will need some attention, possibly a specific bass trap in the corner depending on what you discover when you measure the room, particularly with just that RHS speaker working - it's uneven, a bit awkward, but do-able without relying on extreme dsp solutions

And it's a particular challenge to get a grasp of this rather contradictory subject called room acoustics - this is the hard part and it takes some time - patience required!

Incidentally, what are your speakers? They look like one of Troels designs but not sure of the 2 bass drivers

 

[yoke]

Thanks James
I have one of those DSP unit Analog-Precision
but I would like to avoid high DSP use for EQ...would like to keep it simple as those loudspeakers play nice with simple second order LR...

The loudspeaker start as Tony Gee and Edgars EVE II SpeakerBuilding.com - The GeerS eVe II, Page 1

But I change twitter to 2904/7000 and add another 21W8555, and adjust twitter/mid bas (18W8545) position as I like it a little lower than the original is made...

basically it's completely new speaker, 3way active ...and active makes things a little easier to work with then the passive solution, especially if you are beginner like me (those were the first speakers I made...and it took me like decade+ to finish them...as I have so little time...and space...and...)

 

[Baldin]

Hi all
I'm at the end of diy journey (like it's ever gonna end ), and as I see only thing left is to make some room treatment for better room acoustics
but have no idea where to start
what to do

my apartment is small, as you can see from the drawings...total of 43m2
basically it's living space (3,5mx6,2m) open to the kitchen and entry lobby...
with couple windows
and plain concrete walls

right now I have no carpet on the floor or any picture on the wall, it's basicly as in 3D model...

so I need some advice what to do, what to place and where, some bass traps, some diffusers, some paintings
what to read
where to start

here are some plans of my apartment, with loudspeakers in ''red''

and 3d model for better understaning of ''open space''


any advise is appreciated
thanks

If I may efer to my own treatment of a smaller narrow room:
Use a thick carpet in the middle of the speakers to reduce first reflections from floor.
Building a Home Theater and Listening Room
Use absorbing cubes in the top corners (all 4)
Use diffuers on the side walls where you have the first reflection:
DIY Diffusor | Baldin's Blog

This is what I have found to be most efficient and a minimum. You can add more diffusers to front and back wall. And then add absorption until you get your prefered sound.
For the bass, I think only real improvements can be had with multiple subs placed different and not symetrical places in the room, to excite as many standing waves as possible (and not just a few very pronounced).

my 2 cents

 

[Think]

Some heavy curtains in the corners an heavy carpet do wonders.... but I can make up what your specific problem is in your room. If it is the bass, then first start moving with speakers.

 

[yoke]

Thanks Baldin..will do some reading...
I will not do any construction modification, like the one you did on the ceiling...

@Think...
Maybe I should first finished whole setup and take some acoustic measurment...

I know that my room have bad acoustic, but have to figure which one or more of them...
When you look at it you see that I have plain walls...

Moving loudspeakers around won't do much as I have no space for it...

So for now, before I finish bass amplifier I will try to buy some carpet and build "picture" a like "absorber"...

Just for start...

And once I make it, I will start to play around

But I have to start some place...

Ok..I agre that I should first define whats wrong with the sound and then aprouch to solve those problems...but right now I think that my setup can sound better than it does (in my room)...

I know, that right now there is a loot of guesing...
So thank you all for help...
I will get back once I put everithing to work...make some absorbers and then gat back with report

Ps..sorry for bad english...i'm on mobile phone...so

 

[Think]

By just turning the speakers a little inwards, you will have less reflections of mid and highs. Meanwill the subs are not paralel to the walls anymore which probably will cause less wall reflections. Also placing the speakers little more less to a wall can make big difference.
Try putting your speakers in a 1: Phi (1,62, golden ratio) distances from the walls and ceiling and on the left and right side differently.
Depending on how low your subs play, You could try putting 1 in the left corner and 1 +/- 60 cm apart from it but to quote myself: "For finding the perfect location for your subs in smaller rooms, if prefer the crawl around and listen method after putting a sub at play at your listening position. Where it sounds good, that is a location for your sub. Often near a corner. Repeat with more subs. "
The

 

[scottjoplin]

This short wikipedia explanation of room modes and treatment is quite concise Room modes - Wikipedia You can "measure" room modes accurately enough with an on line tone generator and your ears

 

[jameshillj]

You've gone to a lot of trouble building your speakers - congratulations on finishing them - a long-term project

I see you've received your Analog Precision dsp unit - will be quite interested in your impression of the sound of it, if it's got one.
It's a pretty impressive design offering a different set of options to the Sydney based DCX unit and at about a third of the price.

I'm still struggling with a Selectronic upgraded version of the Berhinger Ultra-Pro for bass in a relatively benign room - I do dislike the sound of it's high pass output even with the better chips and considering an attempt to fit the new Burson V6 chips, but not an easy mod unfortunately

After you've got the system up and running and see what needs to be done, the combination of the A-P and room control looks very promising despite the 'difficult' room dimensions - it's a good thing you didn't opt for the big Maggie panel speakers!

 

[norman bates]

I had luck with cardboard tubes.

The thicker ones people use to make round concrete bases.

Sonotube is a name over here.

I found 12" across tubes, a foot apart works great for an open sound where the walls seem to disappear. Be sure to have them at ear height. Ideally all side walls and behind you.

The World's Best Photos of barreldiffuser and sound - Flickr Hive Mind

I like the way talking at a round diffuser sounds.
The scattered ones (Schroeder ?) with slats or little cubes sound add and jumbled, compared to how sound will evenly scatter away from a round thing.

If I remember, a 12" across round tube scatters somewhat starting at 550hz, and works extremely well at 2.2khz (based on the size of it).

 

[crazyfrog]

the walls

Knock to your walls all over the place . Some area or "spot" could sound "too deep" or "timbale" type. I had to work first with that problem in my room.

 

[yoke]

Thank you all
you give me enough information what to read and think about...
I will take some time to process all that
thanks, I really appreciate it

You've gone to a lot of trouble building your speakers - congratulations on finishing them - a long-term project

I see you've received your Analog Precision dsp unit - will be quite interested in your impression of the sound of it, if it's got one.
It's a pretty impressive design offering a different set of options to the Sydney based DCX unit and at about a third of the price.

I'm still struggling with a Selectronic upgraded version of the Berhinger Ultra-Pro for bass in a relatively benign room - I do dislike the sound of it's high pass output even with the better chips and considering an attempt to fit the new Burson V6 chips, but not an easy mod unfortunately

After you've got the system up and running and see what needs to be done, the combination of the A-P and room control looks very promising despite the 'difficult' room dimensions - it's a good thing you didn't opt for the big Maggie panel speakers!

The worst part is that I was thinking to buy maggie 1.6 when I was like 20years old...luckily I didn't

Behringer DCX was my first DSP and to me it did sound nice...I still think that original version is best buy...
I even like it more than miniDSP 10x10...but

After Behringer I made some over complicated DSP based on Najda (from diyaudio forum member) with 3xAYAII - TDA1541A DAC and PassP1.7 preamplifier with dantimax relay attenuator...some hove I manage to burn Najda board, sold everything and buy this Analago Precison DSP from David

I take DSP (with es9028pro) to a friend, just to see how it sound's compered with some other DAC. Ha have AK4490 from JLsounds (with some improvements) which is really nice DAC...
I really could not tell that there was any difference in sound...could not say one is better than the other
But it was like 40minutes session so no real critical comperation...
But to me it's good as I like how his AK4490 sounds...and this DSP doesn't sound worse

Jea, I place a loot of work into loudspeakers
but it was fun
I would do it again

unfortunately as this is active system, whole DIY, if one link in cahin does not work, the whole system doesn't work...even if it's one cable...so...it can be frustrating...

But I'm getting to finish line

here are some pictures
of loudspeakers in progress, najda dsp...