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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Ekta Mk2? Beyond the Epos ES 22s
Ekta Mk2? Beyond the Epos ES 22s
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Old 12th November 2017, 08:35 AM   #21
lupo 1 is offline lupo 1  Italy
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Default What is it about the Mk2 Ektas you find attractive?

Hi, andy19191,

Thanks for contributing and sorry I'm late with reply.

You're so right about getting used to a design that might be technically or theoretically "incorrect". As I've upgraded my front end over the years I have indeed had the occasional, fleeting moment of doubt, but generally, the Es22s, are a revealing speaker and whatever their limitations, they have allowed me to hear and enjoy those changes/improvements and I've never wanted to go back. I'm pretty open to fresh perspectives.

TG, with his 25M sq. living room seems to imply that the Ekta 11 might benefit from subs and there is just a hint from LineSource and yourself that points in the same direction. Perhaps this makes me an awkward customer, but I definitely don't want to bring subs, or acoustic room treatment into the equation (we do have soft furnishings and at least a heavy rug in front of the speakers) and an active crossover solution is beyond the scope of what I feel I can achieve - so it's all down to the speakers I'm afraid, or speaker placement. I haven't heard from LineSource re placing Ektas closer to the walls behind them.

LineSource, whilst not dismissing stepped baffle designs, seems to suggest that maybe their usefulness is a touch overrated; Giralfino is deeply sceptical; you find them a crude solution and we both find them ugly! Obviously, If I thought that such designs might produce something wonderful, I'd use fine detail to try and overcome any aesthetic deficiencies - if...

As to what attracts me about the Ekta 11?

It's a complete kit and so for me it's within my range of competence. Very naive of me perhaps, but TG now refers to it as his reference point for slim, floor standing three ways and he comments on a wide and deep sound stage even at low levels There's also a lot more engaged feedback and discussion available for TG designs than there is for e.g Zaph or Selah* audio designs *(e.g. the affordable and good looking and flat baffled "Essenza") and I'm sure I'd rather go for an SBA 10 than say a three way Kairos where, visually and perhaps sonically too, that design seems to suffer from the third speaker being an afterthought.

I looked at the new TG SBA 16 MTM design, but TG says that to his ears the Ekta 11 sounds better - as one might hope for given the difference in cost. Giralfino reckons DTQWT would be O.T.T for the size of my room, so now I'm wondering, in spite of my predilection for 3 way, about the TQWT - still comes with that stepped baffle though, and at least the Ekta11 can be veneered throughout - provided I don't put a chamfered curve on that baffle, as Line Source suggests. Then there's the much more expensive SBA10....

Any thoughts and comments on my dilemma would be very much appreciated!

Paul

Last edited by lupo 1; 12th November 2017 at 09:04 AM. Reason: additional info
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Old 12th November 2017, 12:59 PM   #22
lupo 1 is offline lupo 1  Italy
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I forgot to add that if it's an indicator of room effects at all, the es22's in their current resting place can sometimes sound a little bright/piercing/hard in the upper treble - let's say Dylan's harmonica on the J.W.H. album, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice detail O.T.O.H all classical piano sounds heartbreakingly good and convincing right across that frequency range and finally bass has plenty of timbre and is always tuneful, but it's perhaps not always as powerful, or assertive (for assertive perhaps substitute boomy from wall reflections - who cares on a Saturday night!) as I recall it, from another time and place. I think My system sounds better with doors open and a more assertive, (or is it boomy?) bass makes an appearance, if I am well off horizontal axis, to one side of my room or the other, regardless of which speaker is doing bass. The es22's always give me a pretty thrilling sense of the particular acoustics and ambience of the recorded venue.

Last edited by lupo 1; 12th November 2017 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 12th November 2017, 01:47 PM   #23
PJN is offline PJN  United States
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Hi Paul,

I have dealt with Sela audio and can highly recommend them. Rick Craig is a experienced and competent designer. My speakers in my main system are 3 ways he did the crossover design for, they sound great.

Paul
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Old 12th November 2017, 01:54 PM   #24
lupo 1 is offline lupo 1  Italy
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Thanks for that Paul!

Are your speakers one of his named designs, or were they custom made for you? I also wonder how you feel they compare with what you've had before? I'm out for a couple of hours, so if you do reply please bear with me. I don't have a smart phone - maybe because I spend all my spare cash on Hi Fi.

Paul
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Old 12th November 2017, 02:26 PM   #25
PJN is offline PJN  United States
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Hi Paul,

They were a custom job, 10" sealed woofer, 5" mid, dome tweet,
I did the cabinet design and Rick did the driver measurements and crossovers. They are one of the best sounding speakers that I've heard. I've gone to HiFi shops to listen to expensive speakers and have not been impressed, except for the cabinet work, for big bucks you can get a real pretty cabinet and finish. Of course comparing an optimized home system to speakers in a store isn't really a totally fair comparison. I have heard some of Rick's commercial kits and they sounded great.

In my cabinet design the time alignment of the drivers was achieved by driver location and slanting the speaker at an angle.
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Old 12th November 2017, 04:44 PM   #26
andy19191 is offline andy19191  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lupo 1 View Post
Any thoughts and comments on my dilemma would be very much appreciated!
When I first started a proper hi-fi speaker had a tweeter, midrange and a 12" woofer. The laws of physics haven't changed since then although today that proper hi-fi speaker is typically a 1" tweeter, 5" midrange and 2 x 8" woofers in a tower as reflected in the top of the range offerings from the more conservative larger speaker companies. The Ekta II has a single 6.5" midwoofer supported by resonating port tuned to 40 Hz and has insufficient area for clean bass in a room on it's own.

So why do many consider their ported 6.5" midwoofer to be sufficient? Probably because the lowest frequency room modes raise the volume of some of the bass frequencies by 20 dB or so while suppressing others by similar amounts. This boom can be loud but it isn't high fidelity bass.

If the room is going to add uneven 20 dB booms to the output of main speakers with a flat frequency response how does one get high fidelity bass? This is achieved by using distributed subwoofers to absorb/cancel booming frequencies below 100 Hz or so and directed bass and/or passive absorption above. Using subwoofers to remove sound rather than just to add to it means that plenty of cone area needs to be involved.

If you decide decent quality bass is unimportant should you go for uneven booming bass or little bass? Both can be provided by single 6.5" midwoofers. It is only high fidelity bass that cannot. Also if you opt against high fidelity bass then opting for extremely expensive drivers to cover the remaining frequencies is perhaps a bit odd.

You will notice that you are not getting wholly consistent advice and so will have to decide where to place your trust. Opting for an existing kit looks wise to me given your background. TG has been developing speakers as a hobby for quite some time and I doubt anyone can point at any of his recent designs and justify calling them technically poor. However, his enthusiasms can lead to somewhat unbalanced designs where one or two aspects are perhaps a bit too expensive and as a hobbyist he quite understandably tends to try this and that to see how they work out.

The Ekta II uses very expensive drivers but with a single 6.5" midwoofer would require subwoofers to perform as a full range speaker. The SBA 10 version without the expensive tweeter appears to be a better performing and a better value speaker although this has to be qualified by the likely room response. I am baffled by the price being asked for the cheapest version of the crossovers. Passive crossovers don't make much sense when they cost more than the drivers and I would have expected the cost of a crossover using decent standard components to be a lot less. Since the values have not been published it won't be straightforward to get decent standard parts from other sources. If you are happy to view this extra cost as a charge for the design then perhaps it is fair enough.
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Old 12th November 2017, 08:11 PM   #27
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Ekta Mk2? Beyond the Epos ES 22s
Quote:
Originally Posted by lupo 1 View Post
- Problems arising can be reduced by keeping the C. to C. as short as possible -
in the case of the Ekta, 14.5cm.
The holy grail is to keep C-C within 1/4 wavelength at the XO point ó the drivers become essentially co-incidental.

dave
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Old 13th November 2017, 11:40 AM   #28
lupo 1 is offline lupo 1  Italy
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Default A proper hi fi speaker and the laws of physics

Thanks planet10 - more homework for me!

Thanks PJN - you came in at the right moment and I'll contact Rick Craig about his twin woofer designs.

Yes, respect for the laws of physics - it's a proper hi-fidelity speaker that I'm looking for!

Thank you for some rock solid advice andy19191 and for reading this thread with such meticulous sensitivity and care. I never expected wholly consistent advice - all part of the fun - and I am very, very grateful for each and every contribution.

So, I have found a way forward and it seems no coincidence that PJN's response also makes reference to a classic 10/12 x 5/6 x 1 approach for a balanced 3 way design.

On the basis of your last response, I hope I'm right in assuming that 2 x 7.5/8 woofers per speaker (re "most commercial designs") have a decent chance of achieving the same objective as a single 10/12 - obviously, I should explore this a little more. If this is the case, then I'm in a good place to weigh some of those twin woofer Selah design's (starting with the "Essenza") against the SBA 10 - interestingly, both designs use the Satori drivers.

I'm not quite sure where transmission lines stand, as far as "high fidelity bass" is concerned. In any case, the epic "Thor MTM" thread suggests to me that it might be rather a tricky path to navigate....

As regards the laws of physics and the size of woofers, I note that TG himself remarks that " ... I wish it was possible to demonstrate to all first-time diy'ers what it sounds like when we compare a 6" bass driver with -3dB @ 30 Hz to a 12" bass driver with -3 dB @ "only" 50 Hz..."

All the best,

Paul
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Old 13th November 2017, 06:20 PM   #29
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Ekta Mk2? Beyond the Epos ES 22s
Quote:
Originally Posted by lupo 1 View Post
I'm not quite sure where transmission lines stand, as far as "high fidelity bass" is concerned. In any case, the epic "Thor MTM" thread suggests to me that it might be rather a tricky path to navigate....
As long as a proper modeler is used (and the user figures out how to use the modeller), one can get good, consistent results with a TL. Joe made the mistake of thinking he could secound guess the modeling tables, and then a bone-head mistake when measuring the built speakerís response.

We have built a number of TLs for our WAW (formerly called FASTs) that employ TLs with quite satisfying results.

dave
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Old 13th November 2017, 07:28 PM   #30
andy19191 is offline andy19191  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lupo 1 View Post
On the basis of your last response, I hope I'm right in assuming that 2 x 7.5/8 woofers per speaker (re "most commercial designs") have a decent chance of achieving the same objective as a single 10/12 - obviously, I should explore this a little more. If this is the case, then I'm in a good place to weigh some of those twin woofer Selah design's (starting with the "Essenza") against the SBA 10 - interestingly, both designs use the Satori drivers.
In post #11 LineSource posted pictures of what looks like a nicely balanced and good value speaker (assuming sensible crossover). I don't know the details or how well documented it is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lupo 1 View Post
I'm not quite sure where transmission lines stand, as far as "high fidelity bass" is concerned. In any case, the epic "Thor MTM" thread suggests to me that it might be rather a tricky path to navigate....
At low frequencies what you hear is principally the room. Unlike at higher frequencies the speaker details are relatively unimportant. Pretty much all that matters is how much air can be displaced while keeping distortion levels reasonable. Reasonable would be below 1% possibly 3% THD since we are not particularly sensitive to distortion at low frequencies.

High fidelity bass is about distributing subwoofers to control the room response. If you don't do that then you won't hear high fidelity bass. For example, a pair of main speakers with a flat frequency response down to 10 Hz in a typical room are going to sound like the plot in the first attachment. A single subwoofer placed behind the listener, inverted and delayed by the time of flight from the mains will give a response more like that in the second attachment. Of course this is not what a typical audiophile would do with a single subwoofer but it is what pro or someone with knowledge of room acoustics is likely to do. The software, Room EQ Wizard, is free to download and is useful for understanding some basic subwoofer layouts.
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