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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Ekta Mk2? Beyond the Epos ES 22s
Ekta Mk2? Beyond the Epos ES 22s
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Old 9th November 2017, 07:49 PM   #11
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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The Epos ES22 midrange runs full range which which exacerbates lobing. Because of the physical separation between the T and M, their sound pressure waves arrive at different times at the listener's ear such that a positive pressure from the T can get nulled by a phase shifted negative pressure from the M generating a null.
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Attached: Troels round plus chamfered stepped baffle data. A good wood shop upgrade for an EKTA II build?

"time co-incident speakers" ==> every driver cone-air pressure wave starts in the same vertical plane in time. BUT... this alignment only works in 1 point in space unless you are using a co-axial speaker. Move vertically off axis and it's gone.

"Linear phase speakers" offer a relatively flat phase response (a sine wave goes though the same rotation on all speakers) over the intended bandwidth. Low phase shift designs reduce group delay distortion which results in musical harmonic content arriving in its proper timing sequence.
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While it is desirable to build a linear phase speaker, it performs different once you place it inside your room. Nearfield in-room effects and early reflections usually negate most of the linear phase soundstage magic. If you have a relatively live listening room with insufficient near field absorption treatments, you are going to wind up largely masking the magic of the linear phase loudspeakers. Source music is seldom linear phase after the mixing board. Still worthy goals.
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Although you have a modest volume listening room: 1) the room has large open doors which remove bass pressure gains; 2) you locate your speakers 60cm from the walls which therefore requires a full 2-3db of baffle step (boost) compensation(bass energy demands go from 180-degree baffle forward -to- 360 degree full room space). You may need bass-boost from your tone controls, or more/larger woofers.
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The wood shop capability often sets the design direction. Do you favor one or two cabinet shapes? Edge Diffraction Control ... Bevels & Rounds ... Bevels & Rounds
Attached Images
File Type: jpg round chamfered baffle.jpg (120.0 KB, 163 views)
File Type: jpg Sonic Signature.jpg (160.1 KB, 161 views)
File Type: jpg Sony Klone.jpg (144.1 KB, 159 views)

Last edited by LineSource; 9th November 2017 at 07:51 PM.
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Old 9th November 2017, 10:16 PM   #12
lupo 1 is offline lupo 1  Italy
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Default Giralfino, system7 and LineSource

Giralfino,
The Ekta Mk1 still has its own, regular TG page - I Googled Ekta. There is an Ekta kit still available from Jantzen, and as you pointed out, this earlier design provides schematics with values for those who want to adapt, or shop locally for their preferred makers. There's probably just enough cabinet detail to construct properly attuned cabinets too. From my cabinet maker's P.O.V, a v. good looking pair of cabinets! Not sure where this leaves me though, given that TG claims the Ekta Mk11 is cheaper and sounds better!

system7
Thank you for responding - always somewhat in awe of your posts - entertaining albeit a little cryptic for an ingenue like myself! No intention of abandoning the es22s whatsoever; they have been far too dependable and entertaining - more a question of looking to build something really good to compare them with, don't ya know, and then learn more through making comparisons. Perhaps then I will be in a better position to perform open heart surgery. That glued on laminatefront baffle needs a steady pair of hands if I am to enter the cabinet and play with crossovers. Does the final picture in your series pertain to the more complex crossover you mention? Is the little schematic you kindly provided the self same crossover? I told you ... I know nothing...

LineSource and Giralfino and system7
Yes, the chamfered curved baffle certainly comes out best in the little TG stepped baffle study (curved v. straight v. pointed) and I'm wondering if the straight baffle proposed by TG for Ekta 11 is more about ease of build than optimum performance? The comments about Epos baffle exacerbating lobing by having a full mid range v. helpful B.T.W. - perhaps suggesting I need to worry less about the Ekta baffle given the very different nature of the 4"mid?

The speakers absolutely don't have to be 60cm away from the wall behind them - it would boost WAF and be easier if they weren't! Are you saying that in my room, as described, the Ekta Mk11 design would be better a little closer to the wall, or have I misinterpreted the drift?

My hands and the woodshop can stretch to whichever design is going to give me more of the music - a curved chamfered baffle if necessary. Perhaps I could try two versions of the baffle before permanently sealing the cabinets.

Thanks for the speaker thumbnails giving me pause for thought. Your TG citations need more time before I'v grasped them LineSource - bear with me!

Thanks to all three of you for sparing me your time and expertise.

Last edited by lupo 1; 9th November 2017 at 10:22 PM. Reason: additional comment
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Old 10th November 2017, 06:30 AM   #13
lupo 1 is offline lupo 1  Italy
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Default correction re googling Ekta

Sorry Giralfino, the Ekta design page wasn't a Google find - there's still a link to it on the TG site under 'choices' - I realise it doesn't help with making a useful comparisons between the two versions though.

Last edited by lupo 1; 10th November 2017 at 06:40 AM. Reason: additional comment
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Old 10th November 2017, 09:15 AM   #14
giralfino is offline giralfino  Italy
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It's what I said, it's not referenced anymore on the first page of the TG site, the "choices" page is old and probably the reference to the Ekta will disappear eventually. And frankly using the same name Ekta for two very different speakers is a marketing trick to let the buyer think that the mkii is an improved version over the original one. I think they are simply different speakers. As for the price, if you shop carefully for the Ekta you will get a very lower price than the mkii - the point of attention are the tweeter and the boutique caps and coils. I have a list of good shopping point in Italy and EU if you are interested.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying you should build the original Ekta, it's only that I dislike all recent TG stepped baffle design, and unfortunately the choice of good looking 3-way designs with a woofer bigger than 6.5" is rather limited (IMHO). As I said before, one of the best designed speaker with one of the best mid-woofer available today is the Kairos, with or without the additional woofer, and the TG 3-way classic mki is a good value.

Ralf
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Old 10th November 2017, 12:22 PM   #15
lupo 1 is offline lupo 1  Italy
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Default the choice of good looking 3 way designs is rather limited

Yes, you're right about the current choices. I haven't found an example of a finished Kairos with the woofer. I'll make another search. If you wouldn't mind PM ing me with that list, that would be very interesting and useful - or posting it here if that's allowed? Very nice to know there's a fellow fanatic in Italy!

Cheers,

Paul
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Old 10th November 2017, 01:48 PM   #16
giralfino is offline giralfino  Italy
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Disclaimer: I don't have personal interest in any of the following companies, I'm only reporting my past interaction with them as a buyer.

Audiokit: Italian based shop with decent choice, very helpful, answer to mails, can offer tailored coils (they unwind and cut to your spec, for example a 1.3mH out of a 1.5mH coil), sometimes not the best price. If their price is in the ballpark of other shops this is my preferred one.

ehighend: German based ebay shop with a good choice of crossover components with very good price, fast and efficient delivery. They sell what they have on stock. Caps and coils price are sometimes way lower than Audiokit, so for crossover components only my choice is here.

Loudspeakerfreaks a.k.a. Europe Audio: NL based shop with mixed feedback, great choice, generally good price, but if they don't have on stock what you are buying, you can wait for a long time your items. So my recommendation is to buy from them only if they have on stock what you need, or if you don't mind to wait. Very difficult to have an answer from them. It can be a one-stop shop for the great choice they offer.

Ralf
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Old 10th November 2017, 01:52 PM   #17
lupo 1 is offline lupo 1  Italy
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Ralf that's Brilliant thanks and it all helps with my induction into this topic.

Paul
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Old 10th November 2017, 03:12 PM   #18
lupo 1 is offline lupo 1  Italy
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Default 3 way Kairos and 3 way TG classic

Well, I've found some 3 way Kairos examples and I do find them a bit visually challenging so far! Maybe I could refine the way the two boxes come together, but I also find the top cabinet with its steep baffle and unsubtle 90 degree top panel a bit hard on the eye. I should never have looked at the SBA 10 and LineSource's Avalon etc. thumbnails! I can see that the TG 3 way classics might very well fit the bill, but this is a household with a strong floor stander bias so I'd either have to make them resemble floor standers, or come up with an uber nice pair of stands that attenuated that big boxy, studio monitor look. Maybe there's a whole other can of worms in that solution, maybe not.
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Old 10th November 2017, 08:55 PM   #19
lupo 1 is offline lupo 1  Italy
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Default stepped baffles and mid tweeter distance/cross over points

ouch - my third in a row, but still digesting points made by LineSource. Have I got this sort of right:

- Stepped baffles tend to compromise frequency response smoothness.

- However, as with Ekta 11, a stepped baffle is required to achieve phase
integration when implementing LR2 crossovers.

- LR2 crossovers are more sensitive to C. to C. distances between mid and
tweeter.

- Problems arising can be reduced by keeping the C. to C. as short as possible -
in the case of the Ekta, 14.5cm.

- Problems can also be reduced where the crossover point for the tweeter is
kept low (see LineSource's criticism of the Epos design with the v. wide
frequency range of the mid).

If, I'm anywhere close with the above, I have two questions about the Ekta 11:

Is the 4" mid partly in the design to keep C. to C. for M. and T. short and is it likely to be short enough?

At 3.2Khz, is the crossover point low enough for this stepped LR2 design?

Cheers one and all.
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Old 11th November 2017, 11:42 AM   #20
andy19191 is offline andy19191  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lupo 1 View Post
Can anyone reassure me that if I set out on an Ekta Mk11 build, there's a good chance that they will please me as much as, if not more than, my 30 yr old Epos es 22s? Are they an appropriate choice for my current amplification? i note that the DTQWTs can be built for a similar cost, but maybe they're less of a match to my system.
The design of the Epos ES22 will lead to a noticeable characteristic sound in comparison with a conventional high fidelity speaker. If you like that sound then a speaker with a better technical performance may not sound as good. On the other hand, once you get used to them your current speakers may lose their appeal.

What is it about the Ekta Mk2 you find attractive? Do you intend to use them with subwoofers, electronic and/or acoustic room treatment or just as they come?

A stepped or sloped baffle is a crude and ugly way to add time delay to the tweeter. It is unnecessary with an active crossover or waveguide. The time delay makes it easier for passive crossovers to use shallower crossover slopes. Shallower crossover slopes, if the drivers can handle it, tend to smooth the transition from a beaming low frequency driver to a widely radiating high frequency driver.
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