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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

First floor-standing 3-way considerations
First floor-standing 3-way considerations
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Old 13th September 2017, 04:25 PM   #1
kcducttaper is offline kcducttaper  United States
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Default First floor-standing 3-way considerations

After doing some pro audio in college for a while, I've casually been picking up speaker building as a hobby. I've never done a 3-way, but I'm interested in making a set. Here are the requirements:

Requirements:
- (relatively) small, light, and portable with the though being to take them to various small outdoor activities (~25 people max)
- f3 of at least 38Hz outdoors
- 'flat' response up to ~90dB for a small patio party/private outdoor movie setting
- Would like to keep this under $500/pair, if I can, but slightly flexible

Currently, I'm planning to do a WWMT setup and am focusing on the woofers to start with. I considered going with a single 10 or 12, but that just seems too.....mainstream I guess? Anyone can go buy a floor 10 or 12 that hits 38Hz, but it's much more awesomer hitting 38Hz out of a 'small' tower with small drivers, so I've generally settled on dual 6.5 drivers even though a 10 or 12 would be cheaper. I liked the sensitivity, power handling, and look of the Dayton DCS165's, but I just couldn't model an f3 below 42Hz out of them, so they're out. Next in line is the Tang Band W6-1139SIF's. I ran a pair of the 5.25 TB's as my computer sub for a while and was quite pleased with their performance for their size. Logic has it that more cone area, xmax, and double the drivers could only be significantly better. Modeling them up in WinISD, I can stuff 2 of them in a 0.8 ft^3 box with 2x 2"ID ports at 15.76" long, which produces a tuning of 35Hz and keeps the port velocities down to 24m/s without running out of excursion. F3 is modeled at 35Hz with SPL at 105dB before the roll off. Throw in a second speaker and that'll boost output by a couple dB, so sims suggest ~108-110dB to roll off, and ~106dB at 35Hz, without running out of excursion (sims at 1m).

I haven't really settled on the mids/tops much as I realize my woofers will be the key component in this build, but I've thought to toss in an AMT just for fun. I realized there was a speaker that already uses the TB 6.5's and a Dayton AMT up top. I may be generally basing my MT setup, and crossover, on Scott's Zirconium project, but that has yet to be decided.

Just wanted to toss my thoughts up here before diving into it in case something looks not quite right. I'm not interested in nitpicking and super high details at this point, but am mostly just checking to see if my goals for my first 3-way seem reasonable, or if there's a big hole in there somewhere before I dive into it too much.
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Old 13th September 2017, 04:43 PM   #2
chrisb is offline chrisb
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Regardless of driver compliment, the 38Hz outdoors and "relatively" small / light could be a bit of a tough nut to crack?
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Old 13th September 2017, 05:34 PM   #3
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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First floor-standing 3-way considerations
Quote:
- f3 of at least 38Hz outdoors
Keep in mind F3 is only meaningful (Toole) in the filter sense, since you aren’t XOing to anything lower F6 or F10 are much more meaningful.

Quote:
tower
If it is a tower, box dimension ratios will mostly likely make it an ML-TL so your bass reflex sims are not telling you what is happening. You should be able to go lower with a properly tuned ML-TL.

dave
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Old 13th September 2017, 05:42 PM   #4
kcducttaper is offline kcducttaper  United States
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I'd thought about a TL, but I don't have any experience on those at all yet. Seems like it wouldn't make the box much bigger though... Might have to do some research on that.
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Old 13th September 2017, 05:55 PM   #5
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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First floor-standing 3-way considerations
The fact is that if you build a tower shaped box it will have a quarter-wave resonance and won’t be a BR. So you should approach the design from that point-of-view.

dave
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Old 13th September 2017, 05:57 PM   #6
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Your ProSound work should help you accept an EconoWave design is best for the indoor/outdoor mix.
--Waveguide to control directivity to the small group.
--Light weight NdFeB magnet on Eminence 12" woofer
--Two good drivers fit your $500/pair budget

diysoundgroup has proven designs with CNC cut flat-pack kits.

Fusion-12 DIY Sound Group
HT-12 DIY Sound Group
-----------
Dayton DS315 econowave
SEOS12 with Designer12 woofer | Page 4 | HiFiCircuit

Parts Express has DS315, a low cost 1" Dayton compression driver and $10 Dayton SEOS12 or PVR waveguide.
Parts Express also has a flat pack plywood cabinet for a 12" woofer + room for SEOS12.

Last edited by LineSource; 13th September 2017 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:01 PM   #7
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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First floor-standing 3-way considerations
Quote:
CNC cut flat-pack kit
Problem is they are ” MDF. Not near as good or as light as 15mm plywood.

dave
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Old 13th September 2017, 06:47 PM   #8
kcducttaper is offline kcducttaper  United States
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I built a 10" sub out of a sheet of 3/4" MDF and man, that sucker is HEAVY! It's birch plywood for me these days if I can help it (might even rebuild the box if I'm feeling spunky). That and I'm not really interested in doing another kit speaker either. I'm much more interested in building a good sounding speaker that nobody else has made and being able to point to it and say "I designed and built that". That and it's fun building stuff after flying a desk all day.

I do have a CNC machine, so precision and quality control is as good as the monkey running it.

The more I think about it, the more it's making sense to go with a TL. I'll have to do some research and maths on it in the next few days. I just figured I'd do a port since a lot of the big box places did ported. That why I posted up here though, is for pro tips like that before I dove into it.

Last edited by kcducttaper; 13th September 2017 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:02 PM   #9
chrisb is offline chrisb
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Field tested TL ( actually, MLTLs - "mass loaded") or similar topology designs abound hereabouts for which all that pesky math as already been done. The costs of entry and learning curve for much of the measuring and modeling systems now available to the enthusiast aren't as much of an obstacle as in the past, but there's still no substitute for the experience of many years of builds that didn't quite work out exactly as anticipated - sometimes surprisingly better so.

Yes, a CNC can be a wonderful tool - very effective and repetitive - but the design needs to be right first.
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Old 13th September 2017, 07:09 PM   #10
kcducttaper is offline kcducttaper  United States
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I'm still in the learning curve for sure on these things. I'm getting pretty confident with sealed, and ported, but that's about the extent of it thus far. Is there a difference between MLTL and TL, or is MLTL just the technically correct term for all things transmission line?
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