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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:01 PM   #1
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Default Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers

See my unnecessarily long thread on the speaker concept here:
Full Range Build, 12" driver...

Basically a typical build using a full range driver for most of the spectrum, with stereo helper woofers for the lows. Full range drivers selected are Fane 12" 12-250tc. Crossover will be an adjustable electronic unit, so I can futz around with the xo point and see what sounds best, but 150 - 750 hz is the anticipated window, based on what I've heard and read here. FR and Woofers will be bi-amped from some older Yamaha receivers and will each receive ~80w.

Helper Woofer parameters:
1. Punchy! Looking for that "hit you in the chest" feel, ability to be cranked up to 11.
2. Able to be run up to volume = 11 with only 80 watts, so we need some efficiency. Amp can be run at 8 ohms or 4 ohms, so there are some options for woofers and multiples in parallel, etc.
3. Space is of some concern, both footprint and height. The full range cabinets will sit on top of woofer cabinets, so the woofer cabs can only go up so high. A reasonable footprint of less than 24 x 24 would be ideal but not mandatory. Probably not enough room for any fancy horn or TL business.
4. Punchy, not boomy! Primary application is for music in my living room (so things like kick drums hitting hard would be ideal). I know, I know, a properly designed bass reflex isn't necessarily boomy, but I'm pretty sure I want to just go with a simple sealed enclosure here.
5. Secondary function is for HT use, so it would be nice if they dug down to around 40 hz anyway.
6. There will be a dedicated HT SUBwoofer for HT use only, which will cover approx the 20-60 hz range.
7. Living room is approx 25 ft wide x 12ft deep with 8ft ceiling, but there are doorways in both front corners, so speakers are inboard of doorways (so no corner loading currently - though a move is in the near future so this will change).
8. I had my heart set on 1x 18"s for each side originally, but it would seem that 2x 15"s per side has a greater cone area, Sd, and for the same Xmax will move more air (more punch), and perhaps the 15"s having a typically lighter cone mass creates a "faster" sound. I've never dealt with 18s and have limited experience with 15s - most of my experience is with 12"s. If a 12" goes "punch", and a 15" goes "PUNCH!", and a 18" goes "Thud!", then it seems that 15" is the happy medium size (highly technical comparison, for talking points sake mostly).
9. Headroom is a good thing. Ideally the woofers wouldn't be pushed past Xmax for any reasonably sane volume. In fact ideally they wouldn't have to work hard at all.
10. As you may have guessed, there's a budget in play here. There's only about 250 bucks remaining for the helper woofers, though we'll pretend that wood and other little bits are free and just concentrate on the drivers. Budget might be stretched slightly for something awesome, but seems that there's enough there for some entry 18"s, 15"s, etc.
11. Foam surrounds suck, would prefer something with a cloth or accordion surround. Durability and longevity are important. Sound is important. Looks are not important.

I've played around with WinISD a bit now, and have a feel for it. My current favorite for the helper woofer is a pair of 8 ohm 15" drivers in parallel on each channel, 2x 15" for a total of four 15" drivers total. These could either be stacked vertically, 15 on top of 15 with both on the front of the cabinet, or even one 15 on front and one 15 on back configured "push-push".

My top pick so far is 2x 15"s per side, using Pyle PPA-15 drivers, in a sealed 8 ft3 box. I know, I know, Pyle... ugh. but price vs performance is hard to beat, even if they are on the "bottom of the pyle"

Thoughts? Opinions/ideas are welcome.

Thanks,
Jesse

Edit:
*I'm open to the possibility that bass reflex could be the answer (my current main speakers are BR and I don't find them to be boomy), if it could be somehow demonstrated that BR would carry the same punch that sealed enclosure would. One thought I had was to make the enclosures BR, but make the tuned port "pluggable" such that it becomes a sealed box. With the right pvc fitting and a thread in plug, or just a heavy chunk of wood with screws and hurricane nuts, this could certainly be workable.
**OB is not an option, though I'd like to try it someday, there isn't room in my living room to pull the speakers out the requisite distance from the walls - rather, they need to be basically up against the walls to maximize living room space.

Last edited by sbcrx007; 6th September 2017 at 11:24 PM.
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Old 6th September 2017, 11:08 PM   #2
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Some plots from winISD. Transfer function, SPL, and Cone Excursion. Boxes were sized for flattest curve/best LF extension, but sometimes undersized to keep excursion in check.
purple = PPA15 dual sealed
green = 15W700 dual sealed
blue = 18SW1000 single sealed
aqua = DCS450 single sealed
red = PA460 single sealed

I tried simming a bunch of cheap drivers from MCM, but they all seem to be meant for OB, none simmed well.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg winisd1.jpg (309.2 KB, 693 views)
File Type: jpg winisd2.jpg (334.9 KB, 679 views)
File Type: jpg winisd3.jpg (259.8 KB, 669 views)

Last edited by sbcrx007; 6th September 2017 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 7th September 2017, 02:41 AM   #3
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
PA460-8 sounds like a good speaker for $90

here's a couple of sales item 15s

Dayton $73 on sale Dayton Audio PA380-8 15" Pro Woofer

P-audo E15-350N $50 on sale P Audio E15-350N 15" Neodymium Bass Speaker

http://www.paudioeurope.com/pdf/E15_350N.pdf

Last edited by freddi; 7th September 2017 at 02:46 AM.
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Old 7th September 2017, 02:55 AM   #4
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Hi Freddi - thanks, the dayton pa460 specs look good but only simmed 'ok'. I looked at the pa380 as well and it was very similar, i'll see if i still have the sim of that to compare.
I actually saw and tried those p audio neodymiums in winisd, and they rolled off wayyyy early, like 70 hz or higher... ? I will try to dig that sim up too.

I was just surprised that the cheap Pyles simmed pretty good, with a slight bump around 55-60 hz that won't hurt anything. And i can get 4 of the buggers for 200 bucks.

Is there a downside to them, other than they say 'PYLE'?
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Old 7th September 2017, 04:45 AM   #5
JonBocani is offline JonBocani  Canada
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I was testing this week some high SPL stuff: FaitalPro 18FH500 and 15PR400, both in OB (dipole) and both with a somewhat limited A14 Rotel amplifier (80wrms)...

I think when you express your need of very punchy bass, you refer on either one of these or most probably both:

1) Impulse response

2) Midbass and even Midrange


Impulse response, the instanteousness, comes best with a dipole or sealed enclosure config. You lose the low-end, though (forget anything below 60hz or so)

Dipole/Open baffle is extremely ''fast'', that instant drum/percussion feeling is probably unbeatable.

Also, point 2), the ''snap'' comes at higher frequencies than most people think. I'd say anywhere from 200hz to 1.5khz, there is a lot of that snap and even downright ''pounding in the chest'' stuff... You'd be surprised how a 800hz pulsated, satured, sound can hit you at 115-120db. When you have the low-end to back it, it feels like Bruce Lee sound-wave-punching you

So basically, if you really want something terrifying, you need a 2-way bass system: some nasty 12'' or 15'' for the midbass/midrange (say 70-150hz up to 3khz if not more) and... fat subwoofers with massive Vd, xmax, and power.
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Last edited by JonBocani; 7th September 2017 at 04:47 AM.
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Old 7th September 2017, 04:46 AM   #6
JonBocani is offline JonBocani  Canada
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that instant drum/percussion feeling is probably unbeatable.

Not pun intended but, hey! haha
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Old 7th September 2017, 04:47 AM   #7
norman bates is online now norman bates  United States
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I'm thinking that punch goes a bit higher than 150hz.
And the phase wrap of a crossover at 150hz doesn't help either.

A time aligned 6db has best transient thunk sound, but least output.

Remember, my dual 15" crossed @750hz pounds you, but using the same 15's crossed at 150hz to the full range 12" at 150hz does not. Don't get me wrong, it does the "full range thing" and goes to 11, and you feel bass through the concrete, it just doesn't hit you in the chest as well.

Maybe a double 12" crossed at 150hz would work better for impactful chest slam.

I don't know what or how you are going to feel or think about that information.
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Old 7th September 2017, 04:55 AM   #8
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
I think you could have gotten a bit of that "hit" with K15 and those sale 15cx. (K15 will out-punch some FLH yet keep cone motion almost imperceptible) I'm not hell bent on FR.

Hey Norm - are you getting pretty good results from your B102/CAT378 combo?
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Old 7th September 2017, 04:55 AM   #9
JonBocani is offline JonBocani  Canada
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Click the image to open in full size.


Picture i took yesterday. The RTA show a single 15PR400 playing some electronic music (Gui Boratto) with the 80w amp. Did a 117db @ 250hz, i had to go outside of the room it was just unbearable inside. Things were shaking inside, it was physical...

On the picture you can see the 18FH500 which is an awesome driver but can't replace a true subwoofer and falls behind a good 15'' for the mid region, but that thing is a monster for 70-1000hz...
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Old 7th September 2017, 05:42 AM   #10
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
that nice neo 18 would probably be fun in a Karlson. PA460 has a lot of inductance - mass a bit high - it would not "go low" in a regular K - here's a rough estimate in a 1.2X 115bk (making it about 24.5" wide, 32.5" high, 16" deep - I mis-labeled the graph -think its 400w input

https://i.imgur.com/bXE1dOa.jpg
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