I'm sure it would be a killer combo... but yes, that's on a whole 'nother playing field both in price and performance for what I'm trying to achieve here
Right now, its looking like the total system will be:
1x per side Fane 12-250tc full range in a _____ box, powered by main l/r receiver channels, 80w
2x per side Pyle PPA15 15" woofers in a sealed box, powered by 2nd main l/r receiver channels, 85w
+ (for HT only, not music)
1x mono horn loaded 15" subwoofer (a la lilmike F20 or lilwrecker), powered by an iNuke1000dsp
CX2310 or similar for electronic crossover duties
Unfortunately this is more of a case of what's best we can do with the allotted budget, more or less... Hence those ugly Pyles of woofer I mentioned.
This makes sense and I will agree with. OB is off the table at this point, looks like sealed is the way to go.
Any other woofers stand out of the crowd for a sealed application that are also inexpensive?
I'd like to try simming a few more - both dual 15"s per side, and single 18"s per side. I mentioned 4x 12" woofers to my wife but that was not well received... ha!
Budget-wise, maybe you should consider quad-10FE200 per side ?
For double the total price, would the 4x 10" faitals outgun 2x 15" pyles? I'll try a sim but the faitals didn't look like they'd go low enough in a sealed box, pretty high roll off...
Like i said before, wife approval on 4x 10"s per side is not going to be good... single 18, yes. Dual 15s, yeah probably. More ridiculous than that... there will be complaining.
Like i said before, wife approval on 4x 10"s per side is not going to be good... single 18, yes. Dual 15s, yeah probably. More ridiculous than that... there will be complaining.
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Peavey's Sheffield 1500 + is interesting for some potential applications
https://www.parts-express.com/pedoc...-sheffield-pro-1500-woofer-specifications.pdf
https://www.parts-express.com/pedoc...-sheffield-pro-1500-woofer-specifications.pdf
true - in open baffle/U/H - baffle application, it would have useful response down to resonance. A kludge for K-coupler at 4.3 and 7.4 cubic feet bulk https://i.imgur.com/GIfL2qw.gif
Hmm... Well, to recap things -
-sealed enclosure preferred
-2x 15"s vs 1x 18" per channel?
-budget drivers that work well sealed and will get down to about 40 hz?
-- this seems to require a low Fs, which brings efficiency down, which is a big point for dual 15s in that they still go plenty loud with 2 combined (even though low sensitivity)
-punchy & musical, not boomy
-sealed enclosure preferred
-2x 15"s vs 1x 18" per channel?
-budget drivers that work well sealed and will get down to about 40 hz?
-- this seems to require a low Fs, which brings efficiency down, which is a big point for dual 15s in that they still go plenty loud with 2 combined (even though low sensitivity)
-punchy & musical, not boomy
Hi Freddi, Ok this must be in hornresp, I can't seem to manage to do the same in winISD. Either way though, this is just a means to prop up the low end of the curve? I thought we were trying to avoid passive components out at the speakers now that you guys convinced me to go electronic line level xo...
I'm not sure the PPA15s really need the help.. they seem to go pretty low on their own, F3 is like 39 hz, F10 is like 27 hz - in a sealed 4 ft3 box (or dual in an 8 ft3)
I'm not sure the PPA15s really need the help.. they seem to go pretty low on their own, F3 is like 39 hz, F10 is like 27 hz - in a sealed 4 ft3 box (or dual in an 8 ft3)
More plots from winISD, with a few more drivers to compare. 15" graphs are dual drivers in parallel, 18" drivers are single.
Key:
pink - PPA15 dual vented (Pyle)
red - PPA15 dual sealed
green - PRV 18 sealed (18SW1000)
dark green - prv 18 vented
orange - dayton 18 sealed (PA460-8)
yellow - dayton 18 vented
blue - Beta 15 dual sealed (Eminence)
aqua - Beta 15 dual vented
I understand the magnitude, spl, and cone excursion graphs - from this, the PPA15 and the PRV 18 both look good though the Pyles go much louder down low since there are two of them despite their lower efficiency.
Group delay... what can be inferred from looking at this graph? Less is better, no doubt... more audible at higher freq vs lower freq?
For instance the dual PPA15 have a peak of 7.5ms @ 50hz, where the single PRV 18" starts higher at around 8ms @ 10hz but up at 30/40/50 hz is 5.3/4.5/3.7 ms, respectively. So what's better?
Edit: pretty sure I recall reading that group delay was key to it being "punchy" and tight...
thanks!
Jesse
Key:
pink - PPA15 dual vented (Pyle)
red - PPA15 dual sealed
green - PRV 18 sealed (18SW1000)
dark green - prv 18 vented
orange - dayton 18 sealed (PA460-8)
yellow - dayton 18 vented
blue - Beta 15 dual sealed (Eminence)
aqua - Beta 15 dual vented
I understand the magnitude, spl, and cone excursion graphs - from this, the PPA15 and the PRV 18 both look good though the Pyles go much louder down low since there are two of them despite their lower efficiency.
Group delay... what can be inferred from looking at this graph? Less is better, no doubt... more audible at higher freq vs lower freq?
For instance the dual PPA15 have a peak of 7.5ms @ 50hz, where the single PRV 18" starts higher at around 8ms @ 10hz but up at 30/40/50 hz is 5.3/4.5/3.7 ms, respectively. So what's better?
Edit: pretty sure I recall reading that group delay was key to it being "punchy" and tight...
thanks!
Jesse
Attachments
I think the punch you are looking for comes from a combination of a good EQ curve for your room, with enough displacement for the required spl.
My room is a little smaller than yours (approx 21' x 11') and I use a single ported 15 per side crossed to a horn at 800Hz. (I cross the 15's to my subs at 80hz). I have eq'd to a curve similar to the JBL synthesis curve and I have plenty of punch. If you're still planning to go 'subless' with music then using 2x 15's per side, with one as a 0.5 way similar to the Everest speakers may serve you well.
Rob.
edit: just a thought that 2 x 12" drivers with your 12" full range arranged in a triangle crossed at 250Hz would allow all drivers to be within 1/4 wavelength at xo. Could work well.
My room is a little smaller than yours (approx 21' x 11') and I use a single ported 15 per side crossed to a horn at 800Hz. (I cross the 15's to my subs at 80hz). I have eq'd to a curve similar to the JBL synthesis curve and I have plenty of punch. If you're still planning to go 'subless' with music then using 2x 15's per side, with one as a 0.5 way similar to the Everest speakers may serve you well.
Rob.
edit: just a thought that 2 x 12" drivers with your 12" full range arranged in a triangle crossed at 250Hz would allow all drivers to be within 1/4 wavelength at xo. Could work well.
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in some cases a series capacitor (3rd order sealed box) will provide some LR extension and cabinet size reduction. It could also protect if a solid state amp dumps its rail or a preamp throws out a LF transient. (I once kilt 4- Dyna A35xl with a Citation IV tube preamp and Citation 12 amp when turning the preamp off "first" )
56 liter sealed box B&C 15PZB40
)56 liter sealed box B&C 15PZB40
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Ah, group delay. For anyone else looking, see post 4:
www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/71613-educated-phase-plo
www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/71613-educated-phase-plo
Rob - thanks, I appreciate the data point. Output from the two sealed 15"s is probably only marginally more/less than a good ported box anyway...
Interesting idea, arranged into a triangle... I thought there were combing issues with side by side drivers though? Ideally I'd like to try the whole 150-750 hz xo range to see what I like best, as mr. Norman Bates has done.
Freddi - I see... wouldn't that introduce other delays and phasing? Reading about all this makes your head spin. Mid grade fever isn't helping either :\
Interesting idea, arranged into a triangle... I thought there were combing issues with side by side drivers though? Ideally I'd like to try the whole 150-750 hz xo range to see what I like best, as mr. Norman Bates has done.
Freddi - I see... wouldn't that introduce other delays and phasing? Reading about all this makes your head spin. Mid grade fever isn't helping either :\
So from one of the rules of thumb from that post linked above, keep group delay x frequency under 400. 7.5ms x 50hz = 375, so it would seem I'm just within the safe zone!
I bumped the sealed box for the dual PPA15s up to 12 ft3, and group delay now peaks at 8ms @ 40hz. So 8 x 40 = 320, even better. Though cone excursion now exceeds xmax slightly at the full 80w per driver, which they may or may not get. Probably not, considering how damn loud it will be! This also brought the F3 to about 35 hz, slightly lower.
I bumped the sealed box for the dual PPA15s up to 12 ft3, and group delay now peaks at 8ms @ 40hz. So 8 x 40 = 320, even better. Though cone excursion now exceeds xmax slightly at the full 80w per driver, which they may or may not get. Probably not, considering how damn loud it will be! This also brought the F3 to about 35 hz, slightly lower.
I'll have to see how it all works out cabinet size-wise, to see if 12 is doable or if 8 ft3 is already taking up enough room in the living room...
Was thinking a trapezoid cross section as viewed from the top, wider side would be the front, angled sides would the be sides, and small side would be the back to minimize resonances.
Would also be neat to do them in those sonotubes or concrete form tubes... individual drivers per tube, stacked vertically with the tubes laying horizontal...
Or even one in front and one in back in a push-push config, keep meaning to look into that more...
Was thinking a trapezoid cross section as viewed from the top, wider side would be the front, angled sides would the be sides, and small side would be the back to minimize resonances.
Would also be neat to do them in those sonotubes or concrete form tubes... individual drivers per tube, stacked vertically with the tubes laying horizontal...
Or even one in front and one in back in a push-push config, keep meaning to look into that more...
(hope your fever subsides soon - I had a crushing headache which lasted a solid week) - - - re:capacitor assisted sealed box, group delay spikes - I don't have enough practical experience to know how that subjectively affects the outcome. Maybe you can do a slot-loaded push pull design.
PPSL - djk - High Efficiency Speaker Asylum
my only memory of PPA15 was in a Pyle "PA" cabinet - crumbly Chinese particleboard - not much kick compared to my Ks - but that cabinet didn't have any separate midrange - just some KSN1005 knockoffs, so it may be a good performer.
PPSL - djk - High Efficiency Speaker Asylum
my only memory of PPA15 was in a Pyle "PA" cabinet - crumbly Chinese particleboard - not much kick compared to my Ks - but that cabinet didn't have any separate midrange - just some KSN1005 knockoffs, so it may be a good performer.
If you use sonotubes, how about a transmission line? Steve's Compounded, Super-Duper Shiva/Sonotube(R) T-line Subwoofers
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