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Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:32 AM   #61
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Scott - probably so... though maybe not, its pretty open with a large doorway to either side of stereo. Either way, its easier to have too much and turn it down than have too little and have to try and crank it up...

It would just be nice to have good solid response all the way down to the bottom of where most modern music goes - even if the cabinets are not corner loaded and are just wall loaded. Listed to a song today that seemed to get down there pretty low, Muse - Dig Down. Couple of low drops.
MUSE - Dig Down [Official Music Video] - YouTube

Last edited by sbcrx007; 13th September 2017 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 13th September 2017, 02:52 AM   #62
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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RE: 15" neo P audio drivers, I can get a pretty response plot (to an F3 of 40 hz anyway) and excursion below Xmax, and wow will 2 of those suckers per channel go loud.... but just when I thought it might be a reasonable option, I checked the group delay plots again. Can't seem to get rid of a big spike around 40 hz (Fs). ~17 ms @ 38 hz... 17 x 38 = 646 > 400. At 50 hz, it's still to slow at 10ms.

Seems like when you make a driver do something it doesn't really want to do (go below 40hz in this case), group delay spikes.

Last edited by sbcrx007; 13th September 2017 at 02:55 AM.
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:59 PM   #63
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Bit more info on the PPA15, mostly for my reference switching between pc..
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:25 PM   #64
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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So, to recap:

The Pyles may work sealed, or maybe sound "too high Q", which I assume means that they sound overdamped. Or if the specs are off and actual qts is higher, then this problem is even worse. So there's a bit of a roll of the dice here... they may only be "pyles of...____"

Other ideal 15"s? No other 15s I've looked at looked as good as the Pyles for a sealed box, keeping in mind my price point (2x 15s per channel, 4 drivers < $200).

For a 18" drivers, I took another look at the Dayton PA460 and PRV Audio 18SW1000 18"s, and they both look pretty good vented. The PRV also seems to sim good enough for sealed box, so I'd be able to try plugging ports and see if it has enough low end as a sealed box.... Nice not to be locked into one cab design. Following same price point, (1x 18s per channel, 2 drivers <$200), is there anything better than these?

I certainly like the "big" look of a single 18" as well..

Edit:
I also realized I could add in the highpass 12 db/oct 40hz filter that can be engaged on the active xo, so I added one in the filter tab of winISD and it cut things off way to high... So I'll get one of those line level high pass filters instead to use in-line before the xo, 20 hz looks much better and still keeps the drivers from exceeding xmax.
One thing I don't understand on the filter option though is the Q - it comes up as .707, so I've left it as this... but is that what it is typically? This is damping that the filter adds? This is the filter I'd use:
Harrison Labs FMOD Inline Crossover Pair 20 Hz High Pass RCA

Edit2:
I also noticed that adding this filter really messes with the group delay graphs - makes everything worse! Also messes with the phase plot, but I guess that's to be expected. I'll get some plot screenshots up soon.

Last edited by sbcrx007; 13th September 2017 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 13th September 2017, 04:02 PM   #65
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Here are plots for the 18" Dayton and PRV drivers, without high pass filters. The vented boxes do appear to need that highpass filter.
dark red - PA460 vented
red - PA460 sealed
dark green - 18SW1000 vented
green - 18SW1000 sealed
Attached Images
File Type: jpg winisdplot1.jpg (263.4 KB, 110 views)
File Type: jpg winisdplot2.jpg (255.1 KB, 109 views)
File Type: jpg winisdplot3.jpg (252.6 KB, 85 views)
File Type: jpg winisdplot4.jpg (223.5 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg winisdplot5.jpg (228.3 KB, 12 views)
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Old 13th September 2017, 05:26 PM   #66
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Same drivers/boxes, but with 12 db/oct highpass at 20 hz....
dark red - PA460 vented
red - PA460 sealed
dark green - 18SW1000 vented
green - 18SW1000 sealed

Any thoughts? Lots of people seem to be using the PA460, but the 18SW1000 vented has more area under the curve (with many different vented designs, not just the one shown), has a lower F3, less phase variation (more gradual change), and similar but lower group delay as frequency gets down to 30 hz. Seems odd then that the PA460 has a higher BL than the 18SW1000 (22.3 vs 17.3). Plus the PRV does okay in a sealed box to boot...
The 5 year warranty from dayton is certainly more confidence instilling than the 1 year warranty from PRV though.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg winisdplot6.jpg (252.2 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg winisdplot7.jpg (249.1 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg winisdplot8.jpg (242.6 KB, 3 views)
File Type: jpg winisdplot9.jpg (214.1 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg winisdplot10.jpg (215.7 KB, 4 views)

Last edited by sbcrx007; 13th September 2017 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 13th September 2017, 09:31 PM   #67
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Another downside of the PRV 18w1000 is that it wants lots of box volume... like 20 or 30 ft3 to really flatten it out. I had it modeled with 16 ft3, tuned for 20 hz. Surprising since its VAS is only 12.xx ft3, and is less than the Dayton 18.

2'w x 2.5'd x 3.2'h is 16 ft3. That's pretty big, haha. Obviously the footprint could be made smaller with more height utilized, but since I need to stack the full range directly on top of this box (which ideally puts it at ear level), it can really only go so high with a straightforward box design.

Ear height approx 44" from floor... and the 12" Fane full range center could be a minimum of maybe 8 or 9" from the bottom of its cabinet... so 44"-9" = 35" max height for the woofer cab (exterior).

Last edited by sbcrx007; 13th September 2017 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:35 PM   #68
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Helper Woofer(s) for &quot;punchy&quot; FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12&quot; full range drivers
- don't know if 20Hz tuning will have a lot of punch in a big cabinet (?) - it might be ok on the best theater organ and pipe organ recordings- my largest 18" cabinet was 8.2 cubic feet tuned around 28Hz and it had less punch than a 6.4 cubic foot cabinet with an 18. . Ideal qts for a vented-box woofer ~0.31 - then can be run as 6th order with underdamped Q=2 2nd order highpass (Faux below) set ~ to fb.

look at this post Low Qts - djk - High Efficiency Speaker Asylum


"Posted by djk ( M ) on July 25, 2005 at 00:55:59

A 2 cu ft 2nd order sealed box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.18% efficient (84.55dB).
A 2 cu ft 4th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.36% efficient (87.56dB).
A 2 cu ft 6th order vented box with an F3 of 30hz can only be 0.90% efficient (91.54dB).

The correct box size for a Qts=0.312 woofer for the 6th order vented design is Vas*4.1, Fb=Fs=Faux, Q=2 for Faux.

Without the Q=2 filter the box is an SBB4, with the best transient response of all the standard vented alignments, with the filter it is a B6(maximally flat)."

Last edited by freddi; 13th September 2017 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:51 PM   #69
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Freddi - thank you, I need to check that out and read a bit more-

but briefly, isn't that punch mostly off the front of the driver? The first outward motion of the cone, making that initial "!" sound... much like a kick drum... No?

Bandpass certainly kills it in efficiency, but seems that its at the cost of being tight - more slow and flabby... I've never been partial to the ones I've heard anyway. More later, time to go!

Jesse
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Old 13th September 2017, 11:14 PM   #70
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Helper Woofer(s) for &quot;punchy&quot; FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12&quot; full range drivers
dunno the whole formula for "punch" a little Karlson either haves it or emulates it. There's some hit effect with an 8 inch Delta Pro8z in a tiny K-coupler - perhaps some (pyschoacoustic effect from energy storage ?) I had a Traynor sealed bass cabinet with 6-10" - no low bass but some of that mid-range shock wave effect on regular guitar chords and a YBA3A tube top. When I first converted an 8 cubic foot K-coupler from 15" speaker to 18", the effect was like a cannonball rolling across the room although I know it rolled off below 50Hz. The "hit" effect also seems related to a rise in the 110-220Hz octave. RCA-fan sometime builds a little "hit" into a speaker. Here's a single 15 RCA-Fan hitbox - of about 70 liters chamber with a fairly big vent - that raise form 110-220 or so should emphasize stuff like drums - -cello. I think it was intended for a JBL 2226 but would work with similar 15. Seems like Bill said not to use a Vas less than ~150 liters (?)

this is a nice size little box

Click the image to open in full size.




I think a bandpass box "could" sound tight - its matter of getting its crossover right and that's a problem since the front chamber usually has a pretty defined tuning and initial rolloff (until the wavelengths get small enough to leak out of the front chamber's port), making if more difficult to mate with some upper speakers.

a double 15 reflex of modest size should have some punch - that's pretty much an old school bass guitar rig. (2X D140)

If you have headphones, listen to this little Karlson - it was not playing real loud but "can" - my camera has two audio sensitivity settings - one that overloads easily - the other needs really loud spl

YouTube

with standard Karlson couplers, I feel a strong motor 10" speaker is the start of getting enough power to reproduce drums
with a "live" sound . A K-tube is a great way to go for the treble if good coax (or FR) aren't available.

Last edited by freddi; 13th September 2017 at 11:32 PM.
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