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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
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Old 7th September 2017, 05:02 PM   #11
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Quote:
I was testing this week some high SPL stuff: FaitalPro 18FH500 and 15PR400, both in OB (dipole) and both with a somewhat limited A14 Rotel amplifier (80wrms)...
I think when you express your need of very punchy bass, you refer on either one of these or most probably both:
1) Impulse response
2) Midbass and even Midrange
Impulse response, the instanteousness, comes best with a dipole or sealed enclosure config. You lose the low-end, though (forget anything below 60hz or so)
Dipole/Open baffle is extremely ''fast'', that instant drum/percussion feeling is probably unbeatable.
Also, point 2), the ''snap'' comes at higher frequencies than most people think. I'd say anywhere from 200hz to 1.5khz, there is a lot of that snap and even downright ''pounding in the chest'' stuff... You'd be surprised how a 800hz pulsated, satured, sound can hit you at 115-120db. When you have the low-end to back it, it feels like Bruce Lee sound-wave-punching you
So basically, if you really want something terrifying, you need a 2-way bass system: some nasty 12'' or 15'' for the midbass/midrange (say 70-150hz up to 3khz if not more) and... fat subwoofers with massive Vd, xmax, and power.
(that instant drum/percussion feeling is probably unbeatable - lol)

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I'm thinking that punch goes a bit higher than 150hz.
And the phase wrap of a crossover at 150hz doesn't help either.

A time aligned 6db has best transient thunk sound, but least output.

Remember, my dual 15" crossed @750hz pounds you, but using the same 15's crossed at 150hz to the full range 12" at 150hz does not. Don't get me wrong, it does the "full range thing" and goes to 11, and you feel bass through the concrete, it just doesn't hit you in the chest as well.

Maybe a double 12" crossed at 150hz would work better for impactful chest slam.

I don't know what or how you are going to feel or think about that information.
I'm not sure what to do... (Fane also has that 15" full range that is either out soon or just released which would have even more cone area for midbass "punch", though i think it had worse peaks on the freq plots than the 12" 250tc) 2x 12" Fanes per channel? My wife is going to lose her mind, haha. I'm also not sure how I'd wire 2x per channel, since the fanes are 8 ohm and my 2nd amp isn't rated for a 4 ohm load (though without realizing it, I've ran it that way plenty of times using the A and B main speakers together).

Jon, it sounds like you're saying what Norman Bates has been saying in my other thread - that "punch" extends much higher than I would have thought. My current speakers are cheapy 3-ways with 12" woofers crossed at 1600 hz, so that one driver per channel handles all the "punch", and actually sounds pretty decent for what it is.

So now... I guess I'm stuck trying to pick which compromises to use. I'm using the Fane 12" full range for mid-bass on up to the highs - so there should be some punch there, given the size of it.
More punch the higher I cross over from the woofers (ie the woofers will handle more of the sound), But then the worse male vocals will likely sound coming out of the woofers rather than the full range.
I listen to a wide range of music, but most of it is rock/pop stuff. I really don't want to fiddle with the crossover all the time once it's set.

Quote:
When you have the low-end to back it
This is also important... That "punch" seems to require more than just one note - rather it's large band from 30 or 40 hz all the way up to 750 or maybe even 1500 hz. I'm not entirely sure still how much of it is carried by the lower stuff vs the higher stuff in that band.. only that most speakers I hear definitely lack both low end extension and "punch".
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Old 7th September 2017, 05:06 PM   #12
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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that nice neo 18 would probably be fun in a Karlson. PA460 has a lot of inductance - mass a bit high - it would not "go low" in a regular K - here's a rough estimate in a 1.2X 115bk (making it about 24.5" wide, 32.5" high, 16" deep - I mis-labeled the graph -think its 400w input
The P audio Neo certainly does look nice, it just didn't sim well sealed or vented. Perhaps a better question is whether it would be better than the dual pyle 15s for low end extension, punch, and spl even in a Karlson?

I guess that's really the question in play here-
What would be better than the dual pyle 15s for low end extension, punch, and spl?

Is there a budget driver that everyone uses for sealed woofers that is common knowledge that I'm missing?

Thanks!
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Old 7th September 2017, 05:07 PM   #13
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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And the phase wrap of a crossover at 150hz doesn't help either.
GM just brought this up on my other thread - I did not realize the electronic crossovers (LR4) also had time delay issues... crap!
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Old 7th September 2017, 05:45 PM   #14
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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How do you mean? In what context? Are you worried about the power response at the crossover frequency?
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Old 7th September 2017, 06:07 PM   #15
JonBocani is offline JonBocani  Canada
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Jon, it sounds like you're saying what Norman Bates has been saying in my other thread - that "punch" extends much higher than I would have thought.
Might sound a bit crazy but even the tweeter is having a part in that ''punch, snap'' feeling.

Since we all listen to music/film and not pure tones, it's kind of complex and should be considered alltogether. If you ever have the chance to listen a driver (anyone) which is lowpass brickwalled at 150hz, you'll hear not much of anything punchy or snappy, not even remotely. Good clean distortionless, yeah, possible, but snappy, no.

Like i said previously, i think impulse response (OB or sealed) and high-impact midbass/mid are the keys. Already got your 12'' mid/wideband so your best bet would be something like a 18FH500 in my opinion. At least you have a chance to get some decent low-end. Any other 15's PA option will lead to some overlap with your 12' Fane, which would be a waste. Unless you just want some high-output mid system (unbalanced)
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Old 7th September 2017, 06:13 PM   #16
JonBocani is offline JonBocani  Canada
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FYI: if i had to build a home system that is capable or enormous impact/snap etc.. for moderate SPL, i'd personnaly opt for that recipe:

- RAAL 210-10D
- Radian 950PB hornless
- 18FH500
- some high xmax subwoofers 12W6's or 12W7's or Ultimax or else

So, yeah, very expensive and 4-way. But otherwise it's gonna be unbalanced and unlistenable (at least for me)
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Old 7th September 2017, 06:57 PM   #17
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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How do you mean? In what context? Are you worried about the power response at the crossover frequency?
Hi Scott, you're referring to the xo time delay? I assume it muddies up the sound having one side of the crossover delayed 360 deg. I also assume it screws up the impact of a punchy sound like a kickdrum in that the sound is not all produced and does not reach you at the same time. GM mentioned offsetting the woofer and fullrange by many feet to account for the time difference.. I don't want to drag this part out too much here since it's already being discussed in the other thread (full range) - no sense having 2 separate conversations, my fault for mentioning it over here, was just mulling it over and putting thoughts to text. A whole lot of assuming on my part until I read a bit more.

Was just looking at this for more info, but will do more digging later
It’s impossible to build a good loudspeaker. Part 1: Crossovers – earfluff and eyecandy
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Old 7th September 2017, 07:04 PM   #18
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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FYI: if i had to build a home system that is capable or enormous impact/snap etc.. for moderate SPL, i'd personnaly opt for that recipe:

- RAAL 210-10D
- Radian 950PB hornless
- 18FH500
- some high xmax subwoofers 12W6's or 12W7's or Ultimax or else

So, yeah, very expensive and 4-way. But otherwise it's gonna be unbalanced and unlistenable (at least for me)
I'm sure it would be a killer combo... but yes, that's on a whole 'nother playing field both in price and performance for what I'm trying to achieve here
Right now, its looking like the total system will be:
1x per side Fane 12-250tc full range in a _____ box, powered by main l/r receiver channels, 80w
2x per side Pyle PPA15 15" woofers in a sealed box, powered by 2nd main l/r receiver channels, 85w
+ (for HT only, not music)
1x mono horn loaded 15" subwoofer (a la lilmike F20 or lilwrecker), powered by an iNuke1000dsp
CX2310 or similar for electronic crossover duties

Unfortunately this is more of a case of what's best we can do with the allotted budget, more or less... Hence those ugly Pyles of woofer I mentioned.
Quote:
impulse response (OB or sealed) and high-impact midbass/mid are the keys
This makes sense and I will agree with. OB is off the table at this point, looks like sealed is the way to go.
Any other woofers stand out of the crowd for a sealed application that are also inexpensive?
I'd like to try simming a few more - both dual 15"s per side, and single 18"s per side. I mentioned 4x 12" woofers to my wife but that was not well received... ha!

Last edited by sbcrx007; 7th September 2017 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 7th September 2017, 07:07 PM   #19
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Gotcha, what's referred to as a delay in a crossover is a phase shift, a shift of 360 deg is the same as 0 deg. At the xover frequency the LR4 can exhibit a small power dip this explains the LR xovers Linkwitz-Riley Crossovers: A Primer. The null is small and only really has much if any effect when the distance between driver centres is greater that 1/4 of the wavelength at the xover frequency
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Old 7th September 2017, 07:11 PM   #20
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
yes you have to have a good tweeter for bass. Ever sit at a drumkit with crappy heavy plastic heads? - bass will sound thuddy by itself, give it some cymbal action and subjective speed will be better. I suspect similar subjective effect can happen with tape hiss and perhaps surface "ticks" on 78 rpm records.

that brings an issue - do old school horns with their long expanding necks, beam too much for enjoyable presentation of music? I use that type generally only up to ~3 or 4K, bringing in a horn tweeter.

the old Karlson K15 prototyped in the summer of 1951 and debuted in 1953 is still king of punch for its size - assuming a decent coax & xover - or topped with K-tube and good compression driver (I have used horns on top - oddly, a big radial horn mated better than an Edgarhorn LE5/250 tractrix) Its like a cosmic juke box which plays vocals, cello, percussion, sax, Sgt, Peppers, rap, etc. with ease and can deliver jaw dropping clean bass "transients"
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