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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
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Old 12th October 2017, 07:17 PM   #151
RobWells is offline RobWells  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbcrx007 View Post
In fairness,
-i'm only listening to one woofer, not the pair
-no damping in the cab
-and mid/highs were (laughably) provided by the tv, since having issues w/ dual receiver amps.
-also tried just the woofer on its own, which is of course missing a lot of the freq range.

I don't think the cab has any air leaks, and the front removable baffle is sealed with gasket tape from PE
.
Bolted in driver properly? Is there a specific method for large woofers? I botched the alignment of the hurricane nuts in the baffle, so regrettably they ended up bolted in with shcs and nylock nuts.

No measuring equipment, and no real prior experience setting this complex up. "How hard could it be?" Ha!
It may come down to getting a mic and running REW.
One of your previous posts (#115) said you just had the driver sitting in the cutout, I assumed you meant it wasn't bolted in. (which could have been a reason for the excessive excursion?)

Without some sort of measuring gear you will struggle to get this set up properly. I think you said earlier that you were planning to cross as high as 750Hz which would probably require some EQ to deal with baffle step. Where is your xo point now and what slopes are you using ?

Just as an example for you my speakers are set up to follow the Harman curve and needed a 120Hz high pass on the receiver to get a close match to the acoustic 80Hz -6dB point. My subs also ended up with an 18dB/oct slope added to the receivers low pass to get the correct acoustic slope. I'd never have been able to do this by ear. (the attachment is the target curve I used)
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File Type: jpg Synthesis%20Target%20Curve.jpg (81.5 KB, 111 views)

Last edited by RobWells; 12th October 2017 at 07:20 PM.
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Old 13th October 2017, 12:25 AM   #152
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Receiver preamp to active xo (low output) to receiver amp to woofer. Subwoofer is a separate animal, for HT only, yet to be built.
Organ does sound pretty good. Bass guitar and such that are a bit much. There's more punch than a single fisher 12, but not gobs more. I hope it comes together more with the fanes as well... Need to finalize a first box to try them in. Sealed looked good. Xki looked promising. Ported, not so much for a flat response, but if a big peak was wanted around 80-120 hz it certainly does that.
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Old 13th October 2017, 01:52 AM   #153
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Rob, yes that was prior testing with the box laying faceup on the floor.
I think it may be tricky to get setup too... I will give it a try by ear, then think about some equipment.

Xo point was last set at 120-140hz, and its a 24db/oct slope. I just have an analog 10 band eq, nothing fancy and digital, so we'll have to see how that works... The active xo can only cross at the specific freq you set, you can't offset the high/low pass frequencies. Xo is an analog behringer cx2310.

It will certainly be interesting, thanks for adding your experience!
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Old 13th October 2017, 03:02 AM   #154
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
is the major "hit" in the ~110-220 octave, "slam" - an octave below? - or course it seems to be partly the way react to certain balance of mids highs to bass in a given speaker and perhaps where that speaker is placed (1pi 2pi 4pi)

that Fane xover-ed at 80-100 (just guessing) should be nice

https://i.imgur.com/RS0DDqQ.jpg

here's Tune-bot's tuning frequencies for common toms and kick (up to 24")

Tune Bot Drum Tuner

Last edited by freddi; 13th October 2017 at 03:11 AM.
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Old 13th October 2017, 04:08 AM   #155
GM is offline GM  United States
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https://universe-review.ca/I13-17-Musicalns00.jpg

I've always equated 'slam' to 'punch', which this ~supports: https://www.computeraudiophile.com/a...281720a3ec7e35

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Last edited by GM; 13th October 2017 at 04:19 AM.
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Old 13th October 2017, 08:35 AM   #156
norman bates is offline norman bates  United States
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Think i liked 150hz best or none on fane, depends on volume wanted or how i was feeling about phase wrap through bass region.
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Old 13th October 2017, 03:30 PM   #157
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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I think "hit", "slam", and "punch" are probably largely the same thing as well.

My xo point has to be the same for both the 18" PA460 and the 12" Fane, so it's going to take some trial and error to see what sounds good. The 18" sounded oddly muddy/distorted up above about 150 hz, but possibly this is just because of the missing mid/highs, or in the case of me trying to use the tv speakers as mid/highs perhaps some delay effect since the tv is decoding the hdmi signal separately - not ideal, and obviously this was just jury rigged at the time to try and get a better feel for how the 18 would sound along with the FR drivers.

Norman, you had said previously you liked 750 hz better? I don't think this 18 is going to be clear that high, but we'll see once I add the Fanes.

Thinking about it today, and it sounding good at low volume vs sounding crummy when cranked up - I think this is probably my box resonating since there's no internal bracing yet. So I'm turning 5 sides of the box into additional transducers, each with their own resonant frequency... an effect which would grow the more energy being put into the driver. I need bracing.

I need to see what effect that 20hz high pass has, see if that helps with excessive excursion - it should. Maybe go higher if that's not enough. Come to think of it, I think the XO has a 25hz filter I could try, forgot it had that feature.

Family in town this week/weekend and part of next, so likely no progress til next weekend sometime, unfortunately.

Did I mention this 9.85 cf box is big? and heavy? It's a tough thing to move around single handed, even on a dolly. Stairs are not fun. Ha!
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Old 13th October 2017, 04:39 PM   #158
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
-not sure what the 20Hz high pass would do - that would help in a turntable system where the RIAA curve boost is picking up record warp, rumble, and tonearm shakes from footsteps.

according to hornresp and depending upon tuning, max excursion occurs around 45Hz. (see the last two graphs with lossy inductance model) I can make a little K with a 12 which in theory has more "hit" on the tom fundamental and harmonics than the 18 BR - but it will have no low bass. Such a toy might have use including outdoors. As the little K is moved from 1pi to 2pi to 4pi, its low end will drop, but the upper cavity peak around 210Hz may remain similar. so eq may be in order. In 1pi it may sound out of balance with the mids. I have an old B102 10" in a funky "Pioneer" K12 - drums sound real with no perceptible cone movement.

There's always tradeoffs.

the first four panels are the little K kluge sim
Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by freddi; 13th October 2017 at 04:54 PM.
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Old 13th October 2017, 04:47 PM   #159
sbcrx007 is offline sbcrx007  United States
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Hey Freddy, even the 20hz filter moves the freq and excursion curves considerably.. I chose the lowest filter that brought the excursion curve in line with what I was comfortable with - I think it was within or nearly within xmax @ 80w down to 25 hz, and within xlim down to 0 hz. I still need to try the filter though. My little demo test was pretty time limited, so I did what I could.

I was originally trying for a flattish response since I wasn't sure yet what frequencies I'd want to maybe boost a little for more hit.. With the K type box I was worried with the bandpass type response I'd be fighting that peak to try and get it flattened out first. I don't know, maybe it's not such a big deal... Not knowing exactly where the "punch" I was looking for was located frequency wise, I was trying to keep my options open.
Thanks!
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Old 13th October 2017, 05:15 PM   #160
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Helper Woofer(s) for "punchy" FAST/WWW/SAW/etc. to go w/ Fane 12" full range drivers
K15 doesn't have the cavity peak like some little K (the traditional K generally gets rougher below K12 size) - its not a subwoofer - but its response and power lives where the bass lives. I have a ton (literally) of horns, etc. and K15 my fave for "bass" in popular music including rap. Its not deep enough for the best organ reproduction unless re-tuned and boosted. Steve Schell likes K15 t0o and he makes a $50,000 or more speaker.

I rattle on about the damn K15 and ilk as imo they deserve preservation.
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