Some Advice Please!

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I am an advance hobby level woodworker and have the experience and equipment to build almost any speaker cabinet. Unfortunately what I do not have is the other (largest) size of the equation, the speaker design or science knowledge for a correct design.

I have a large wall unit (13’ wide – picture attached) that we built in our listening area (15’ deep x 20’ wide).

The two shelves on the bottom are adjustable so ideally I could place a 20” tall x 16” depth MTM speaker there or preferably on the shelf that is on the same level as the tv and could place a little less than a 16” high x 16” deep speaker there.

Over to the right of the wall unit I have a HSU ULS15 Subwoofer and I currently have Klipsch in wall MTM speakers that I am going to abandon (they are located in a terrible location, am not happy with the sound, but that is a long story). These are powered by my Marantz SR5008 receiver.

I would build the cabinets and am looking for the best sounding options for a budget of in the area of $750 for components (drivers, crossover, etc., not including cabinet costs). I would preferably like to be able to fit this in a under 16” height but could go up to 20” (but that would lower the location of the speaker below ear level).

Any recommendations or a direction for me would be greatly appreciated?


Steve
 

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frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
$750 is a fairly serious budget, you should be able to do something pretty good.

If the Klipsch are the grills i see in the cabinet, despite any questions of their quality they are at a decided disadvantage buried in that cavity.

I am a full-range guy and the only MTM i could recommend is a FAST design we did, but it, at least at this point, requires bi-amping. I guess possiible if your HT receiver is 7.2 and allows you to bi-amp the fronts. It does conform to the XO at or lower than the magic ¼ wavelength centre-to-centre rule.

I am sure some of the multi-way guys will have a lot of suggestions for more convential cone+dome MTMs.

dave
 
$750 is a fairly serious budget, you should be able to do something pretty good.

If the Klipsch are the grills i see in the cabinet, despite any questions of their quality they are at a decided disadvantage buried in that cavity.

I am a full-range guy and the only MTM i could recommend is a FAST design we did, but it, at least at this point, requires bi-amping. I guess possiible if your HT receiver is 7.2 and allows you to bi-amp the fronts. It does conform to the XO at or lower than the magic ¼ wavelength centre-to-centre rule.

I am sure some of the multi-way guys will have a lot of suggestions for more convential cone+dome MTMs.

dave

Well the wall unit and in turn the in wall speaker location is a sad, sad story. I actually built the lower portion of the wall unit thinking that is all we wanted. Then a friend of my wife’s comes over and has the brilliant idea that in order “complete” the room, we have to add the upper section. As far as aesthetics, I agree it looks ok, but ruined the speakers sound, so I am just going to disconnect and leave them in place.
Since I am such a neophyte at this, I was hopefully looking for a complete setup (drivers, crossovers, etc.) that would greatly improve the sound I currently have. I do have a Marantz SR5008 receiver and a HSU Research ULS15 Subwoofer, so I have a couple of pieces to start with.
 
Hi Steve, if you care about learning how to design speakers for yourself, which in itself is an easy task once one stops believing in audiophoolery, then I'd recommend investigating what kind of quality components are these Klipsch speakers and improve their design by building a new enclosure and new filters. Placing these modified boxes in a better position on the same level as TV set, would be something for the better. I suspect that there is a fair chance your Klipsch are worth saving but do tell us what that model is, if it's not too much to ask.
 
Cabinet volume, not shape, in theory is all that affects response. BUT, if you are going to port, it should front vent because behind is likely congested and not enough breathing room. In bookshelf situation I like the speaker to stick out a bit past all the flotsam on the shelves, maybe 1.5-2" to ameliorate reflections a tad (TAD? ha ha).

I would be VERY curious to try those Klipsch at the front of the shelves, just knock together some cheap but decent enclosures and try them out. You might be quite surprised, because planet10 is right you are KILLING those things the way they are placed. Is that a center channel above the screen behind the plants?

Hmmm, yes I would definitely knock together some experimental cabinets, and try them in different places just to see how their inherent sound is. If OK, I'd be tempted to make a kind of skinny-width "tunnel" enclosure to bring those in-walls to the front of the shelves, coupled open to the air volume in the wall for bass, then they wouldn't take up so much space on the shelves and it would look better than just a slab front with those or other drivers. (The odd overall cabinet might have some kind of resonance...but I'd try it anyway!)
 

GM

Member
Joined 2003
Placing these modified boxes in a better position on the same level as TV set, would be something for the better.

For sure if you mean on the same plane and factoring in that for HT the tweeter ideally is at 2/3 screen height same as a cinema app and it's a bummer the shelf is fixed; plus if doing an MTM, then an inverted TM on top of the shelf with the other M on the other side is required, though if using a wide range T, the Ms could be still be fairly large and keep the <1 WL XO point spacing.

GM
 
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frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
Marantz SR5008 receiver

This receiver does allow you to use the main channels plus channels 6 & 7 to bi-amp the LR speakers. "You can also connect front (main L/R) bi-amplified speakers that are bi-amp capable.". My partner Chris has used this feathure in his Onkyo 7.2 AVR to biamp a number of our FAST builds. If you are not going to use these channels for ftont height or 2nd room speakers it gives you a very good option to bi-amp the fronts saving you the cost of XO parts in your build.

dave
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
Cabinet volume, not shape, in theory is all that affects response.

The volume of the box affects LF performance, but the shape of the loudspeaker has a great effect on its diffraction signature, the lower it is, the more likely the speakers will be able to do a “disappearing” act. In the shelf unit will have an effect on this as well.

I don’t have great pictures of the stand-mount MTM FAST, but here, on their back without drivers screwed in, this shape has a quite low diffraction signature,

FF85-W14-laidLoose.jpg


The drivers, stock, are cheap, <$200, even with full treatment significantly under your budget, but you could use these as a template to do something with pricier drivers. With the Marantz as XO you cross them 250-500 Hz.

dave
 
Hi Steve, if you care about learning how to design speakers for yourself, which in itself is an easy task once one stops believing in audiophoolery, then I'd recommend investigating what kind of quality components are these Klipsch speakers and improve their design by building a new enclosure and new filters. Placing these modified boxes in a better position on the same level as TV set, would be something for the better. I suspect that there is a fair chance your Klipsch are worth saving but do tell us what that model is, if it's not too much to ask.

The models I have are the r2502

Reference In-Wall Speakers | Klipsch

The way I built the upper portion of the wall unit would make it almost impossible to remove the drivers.

I was hoping to get a tried and true design/kit that would impress my ears while at the same time making a good looking box for them with a combination of Maple veneer and Sapele trim.
 
Cabinet volume, not shape, in theory is all that affects response. BUT, if you are going to port, it should front vent because behind is likely congested and not enough breathing room. In bookshelf situation I like the speaker to stick out a bit past all the flotsam on the shelves, maybe 1.5-2" to ameliorate reflections a tad (TAD? ha ha).

I would be VERY curious to try those Klipsch at the front of the shelves, just knock together some cheap but decent enclosures and try them out. You might be quite surprised, because planet10 is right you are KILLING those things the way they are placed. Is that a center channel above the screen behind the plants?

Hmmm, yes I would definitely knock together some experimental cabinets, and try them in different places just to see how their inherent sound is. If OK, I'd be tempted to make a kind of skinny-width "tunnel" enclosure to bring those in-walls to the front of the shelves, coupled open to the air volume in the wall for bass, then they wouldn't take up so much space on the shelves and it would look better than just a slab front with those or other drivers. (The odd overall cabinet might have some kind of resonance...but I'd try it anyway!)


I thought about all kinds of rescue missions but I am simply abandon them due to the damage I would do trying to get them out. Yes there is a center speaker, to high. So the whole thing was a wash. Since I am into woodworking I really want to start fresh and build some nice boxes and put something inside that will impress the ears! For the first time out I would like to try and get a tried and true design with all components matched and ready to go.
 
Dave and Eric, I really appreciate the advice, I will have to do some reading to translate some of your references (when I tell you I am a neophite I really mean it).

Is there an option to buy the MTM FAST setup with high end drivers and crossover in a package. For the first time out of the gate I want to try and go with a package and spend quite a bit of time on the cabinet work (try to make the wifey happy at the same time).
 
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frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
Is there an option to buy the MTM FAST setup with high end drivers and crossover in a package.

We will be selling the drivers you see in the picture above (matched & treated, and with box plans), but you’d have to use the XO in your receiver to bi-amp. We have developed a passive XO for the drivers but it is specifically for use in the Tysen V2 floorstander where the midbass drivers are mounted on the sides push-push in an ML-TL.

Your receiver gives you significant XO flexibility, and going active has advantages, you should consider that approach.

dave
 
We will be selling the drivers you see in the picture above (matched & treated, and with box plans), but you’d have to use the XO in your receiver to bi-amp. We have developed a passive XO for the drivers but it is specifically for use in the Tysen V2 floorstander where the midbass drivers are mounted on the sides push-push in an ML-TL.

Your receiver gives you significant XO flexibility, and going active has advantages, you should consider that approach.

dave

Dave, I should point out I am currently driving five speakers (three you see in the picture, and two Klipsch outdoor speakers on the second zone setting on the marantz) . If advantageous I would build a center speaker as well to be placed in front of the one I was going to abandon.

What did you mean we are going to be selling? Are you a retailer?
 
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