So, I apologize if this has been asked before. Searching for, "tube speakers," or "PVC speakers" hasn't resulted much other than DIY projects for boats. What I would like to do though (and I wanted to get some advice before I started digging deeply in to choosing drivers, amps, etc....) is to take a 6" diameter piece of PVC and attach a 6.5" coaxial speaker on one end, and a 6.5" passive radiator on the other end.
My brother is opening up his own retail store and would like to have 6-8 speakers suspended from the ceiling. The ceiling is very high, Maybe 25 feet, so conventional in-ceiling speakers are likely out. My idea was to just put 4 conventional speakers, one in each corner, maybe 8-10 feet up, but he insisted on the suspended speaker idea, so here I am. He mentioned liking the idea of tube speakers.
Budget for this project would ideally be on the mid to lower end. I'm thinking $100 per speaker.
So my questions are:
- Just bag the idea and go with the 4 speakers in the corners?
- Bag the tube speaker idea, and just suspend normal box enclosures?
- Get rid of the passive radiator and just do 1 coaxial speaker in a sealed PVC encolusre?
- Does anyone have experience with coaxial speakers that could recommend a good mid-range brand?
As always, Thank y'all.
My brother is opening up his own retail store and would like to have 6-8 speakers suspended from the ceiling. The ceiling is very high, Maybe 25 feet, so conventional in-ceiling speakers are likely out. My idea was to just put 4 conventional speakers, one in each corner, maybe 8-10 feet up, but he insisted on the suspended speaker idea, so here I am. He mentioned liking the idea of tube speakers.
Budget for this project would ideally be on the mid to lower end. I'm thinking $100 per speaker.
So my questions are:
- Just bag the idea and go with the 4 speakers in the corners?
- Bag the tube speaker idea, and just suspend normal box enclosures?
- Get rid of the passive radiator and just do 1 coaxial speaker in a sealed PVC encolusre?
- Does anyone have experience with coaxial speakers that could recommend a good mid-range brand?
As always, Thank y'all.
a speaker built into a cylinder works fine. With a 6” pipe you have some flexibility (i’d not put a 6” into it, you might consider a 4 or 5” FR.
I haven’t done anything ever with a PR, but have taken advantage of the length of th etube to make an ML-TL.
Laying Pipe with Audio Lego
the toobs Mk 1
Attached is a double tube TL for a big bass driver from a Speaker Builder project.
Linkwitz Pluto uses a tub eloaded woofer.
Quite common to use a paper concrete form tube for subwoofers.
dave
I haven’t done anything ever with a PR, but have taken advantage of the length of th etube to make an ML-TL.
Laying Pipe with Audio Lego
the toobs Mk 1
Attached is a double tube TL for a big bass driver from a Speaker Builder project.
Linkwitz Pluto uses a tub eloaded woofer.
Quite common to use a paper concrete form tube for subwoofers.
dave
Attachments
I'm guessing that this covers a large area. If you are using multiple speakers, it would be better if the speakers were not omnidirectional, but had a greater directivity that is associated with, for example, a 12-inch coaxial speaker. Aiming these speakers downward and placing them distributed throughout the space can result in greater intelligibility. Using directional speakers, a listener standing at a given location hears mainly the speaker(s) above that location, and speakers farther away are decreased in volume due to their directivity. If the speakers are omnidirectional, a listener in a given location would have line-of-sight to more distant speakers and hence hear delayed versions of the same sound. Of course if the space is very reflective (e.g., all concrete) there will be problems in any case; however, even in that case the directional speakers are still useful to achieve the best result.
Maybe other readers here can suggest some economical directional speakers, either coaxial or with separate horns. Maybe the Eminence 12" coaxial with the right HF driver?
What are your goals for the sound quality? Voice paging? Background music? Really loud music (like an old Tower Records store)?
Tom
Maybe other readers here can suggest some economical directional speakers, either coaxial or with separate horns. Maybe the Eminence 12" coaxial with the right HF driver?
What are your goals for the sound quality? Voice paging? Background music? Really loud music (like an old Tower Records store)?
Tom
What's the retail type / aesthetic?
Passive radiators aren't cheap. They are also large and heavy coned, relative to the active speaker cones they are paired with.
I think mounting them vertically is an unusual application. Their heavy cones would sag a bit. To get them done right and within your budget, you'd probably have to build + measure + modify them yourself.
That's the layout I'd go for. I'd also mount the driver onto a large baffle, and glue the tube onto the rear that baffle, rather than gluing the driver directly onto a tube.
The reason: see how much less ripple the rectangular baffle has, compared to the cylinder, here - compare graph 2 vs graph 4.
You might be able to get suitable pipe for free. I've made speakers for free by using heavy cardboard tubes salvaged from a textile factory.
If you want the sound to be focused on particular spots, I'd suggest a swarm of small car or ceiling speakers, hanging low.
If you want to flood the whole space with sound, I'd suggest a few big pro coaxials, hung high.
Passive radiators aren't cheap. They are also large and heavy coned, relative to the active speaker cones they are paired with.
I think mounting them vertically is an unusual application. Their heavy cones would sag a bit. To get them done right and within your budget, you'd probably have to build + measure + modify them yourself.
That's the layout I'd go for. I'd also mount the driver onto a large baffle, and glue the tube onto the rear that baffle, rather than gluing the driver directly onto a tube.
The reason: see how much less ripple the rectangular baffle has, compared to the cylinder, here - compare graph 2 vs graph 4.
You might be able to get suitable pipe for free. I've made speakers for free by using heavy cardboard tubes salvaged from a textile factory.
If you want the sound to be focused on particular spots, I'd suggest a swarm of small car or ceiling speakers, hanging low.
If you want to flood the whole space with sound, I'd suggest a few big pro coaxials, hung high.
I see that there are the general misconceptions as usual: a large baffle implies a large space behind the cone, which is what is needed as the back wave doesn't have to be constipated. I've made several boxes with PCV ( 1/2 to 3/4" thick and well damped inside ) but I do care about what happens behind the cone ( 'cos it's reflected on the usable front emission).
For me stereo with two frontal speakers is the only acceptable - they already do a big mess when not optimised, figure out with multiple sources in chaos
For me stereo with two frontal speakers is the only acceptable - they already do a big mess when not optimised, figure out with multiple sources in chaos
Thank y'all for the responses. It is a decently sized space, maybe 1800 square feet, and unfortunately all concrete. It is going to be a wine store/wine bar, so goals for the sound would be low to medium volume background music, with the sound focused primarily over the actual bar, and the sitting area in the corner. The event would be used as an event space from time to time also, so it may need to get a little louder, but would still probably just be background music even for events.
So I guess what I meant when I said coaxial, was more of an automotive version of a coaxial speaker, with a woofer and a tweeter mounted over the dust cap. Not necessarily the PA version of a coaxial speaker.
Anyways, these replies give me a good starting point for doing some research.
So I guess what I meant when I said coaxial, was more of an automotive version of a coaxial speaker, with a woofer and a tweeter mounted over the dust cap. Not necessarily the PA version of a coaxial speaker.
Anyways, these replies give me a good starting point for doing some research.
Would building 4 large coaxial speakers, using something like the emminence 12" mentioned above, and hanging them 15-20 feet off the ground, be advantageous over 6-8 smaller speakers hanging 10-12 feet off the ground? The price is pretty appealing on 4 large speakers using the emminence mentioned above.
Konnan, you would want a hi-fi speaker ( two ) for reproducing music
OR
you want a speaker that can be attached to instruments ( electric or mic captioned )
The two things don't meet except that the transducers are round shaped and need an amplified ( power ) signal.
In hi-fi you have to consider the whole system, like elsewhere, but the source is fundamental ( well, everything is ) because it provides the flowing of the two channels. Usually, you'll find a computer with streaming data or HD based as nowaday that's the norm. So at that point you have to worry about the amplifier, the cables, the speakers and their positioning. I find the last the most difficult as ( the sound is speakers+room ) it's often customer dependant.
I lent to my friends who have some stores/rooms on the street ( yes! wine shop or art like paintings, paper-mache etc. ) some of my lo-fi creations which include 5-10 W amplifiers or less ( like 2.1 PC speakers with a 20 W transformer) and mixed speakers. Those are usually three-way with simple/minimal crossovers ( my coils & caps I regret to separe from them )
and the speakers are selected for their function.
OR
you want a speaker that can be attached to instruments ( electric or mic captioned )
The two things don't meet except that the transducers are round shaped and need an amplified ( power ) signal.
In hi-fi you have to consider the whole system, like elsewhere, but the source is fundamental ( well, everything is ) because it provides the flowing of the two channels. Usually, you'll find a computer with streaming data or HD based as nowaday that's the norm. So at that point you have to worry about the amplifier, the cables, the speakers and their positioning. I find the last the most difficult as ( the sound is speakers+room ) it's often customer dependant.
I lent to my friends who have some stores/rooms on the street ( yes! wine shop or art like paintings, paper-mache etc. ) some of my lo-fi creations which include 5-10 W amplifiers or less ( like 2.1 PC speakers with a 20 W transformer) and mixed speakers. Those are usually three-way with simple/minimal crossovers ( my coils & caps I regret to separe from them
)and the speakers are selected for their function.
You might want to think about hiring an audio consultant. I'm not an expert at the wine bar business (thought I'd like to be an expert customer!), but the atmosphere taken as a whole may be a significant factor in the success or failure of the business. Consideration of the audio may be part of a holistic look at the atmosphere.
Also, you might want to check local codes about what can be hung over people's heads and any approval process.
If you build your own speakers, here is some information. I looked up some information on the Eminence Beta 12 CX. If you put it in a 5-cubic foot sealed box, you would have a lower -3dB frequency of about 63 Hz at a Q of about 0.7. Also, the xmax is not all that high, so you wouldn't be able to boost the bass by very much. You could cross over to a subwoofer if that is important. A different approach would be to use a ported enclosure for the Eminence which would get more bass and make xmax less of a limitation, but it could complicate the crossover to the sub (my opinion). You could use a box designer program to get dimensions of a ported box.
The directivity of the speaker is a function of frequency, but just for a rough analysis, assume it is 90 degrees. Then a speaker 25 feet high would cover a circle about 50 feet in diameter (not making any allowances for the fact that people's ears are not at ground level).
I like the idea of downward-pointed PA speakers more than the speaker-in-the-corners idea or the hi-fi speakers idea.
Tom
Also, you might want to check local codes about what can be hung over people's heads and any approval process.
If you build your own speakers, here is some information. I looked up some information on the Eminence Beta 12 CX. If you put it in a 5-cubic foot sealed box, you would have a lower -3dB frequency of about 63 Hz at a Q of about 0.7. Also, the xmax is not all that high, so you wouldn't be able to boost the bass by very much. You could cross over to a subwoofer if that is important. A different approach would be to use a ported enclosure for the Eminence which would get more bass and make xmax less of a limitation, but it could complicate the crossover to the sub (my opinion). You could use a box designer program to get dimensions of a ported box.
The directivity of the speaker is a function of frequency, but just for a rough analysis, assume it is 90 degrees. Then a speaker 25 feet high would cover a circle about 50 feet in diameter (not making any allowances for the fact that people's ears are not at ground level).
I like the idea of downward-pointed PA speakers more than the speaker-in-the-corners idea or the hi-fi speakers idea.
Tom
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I have a place near Portland and there's a lot of spaces like this.
The sound is always terrible; concrete is incredibly reflective.
If it were me, I'd use speakers that are VERY directional and I'd orient them so that the floor is outside of their beamwidth.
Putting speakers in the ceiling and aiming them at the floor will sound horrendous.
The sound is always terrible; concrete is incredibly reflective.
If it were me, I'd use speakers that are VERY directional and I'd orient them so that the floor is outside of their beamwidth.
Putting speakers in the ceiling and aiming them at the floor will sound horrendous.
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