Powerful 3 Way System - Help needed

[Butaboy]

Hey guys, I'm new to this site and new to DIY Audio Systems as a whole. I want to build a 3 way speaker system, a really powerful at that. The components I'm looking at so far are:

2 Dayton Ultimax 18"
https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-um18-22-18-ultimax-dvc-subwoofer-2-ohms-per-coil--295-518

Behringher NU6000
https://www.parts-express.com/behringer-nu6000-inuke-6000w-lightweight-power-amplifier--248-6708

Need advice on matching Mid Range Speakers and matching Tweeters/Horns.
It would be great if I can run the entire system on the one NU6000 amp with passive crossovers, however I've read that it makes more sense to use an active crossover, what are your thoughts on that?
And will I need another amp if an active crossover is to be used?

The Ultimax seems better for the lows as compared to the HO series, even tho the HO are more sensitive. But you can also advise on which you think would be better.

I want to use this system for everything, from listening at home in a 15X15 room rattling the windows to filling a large room with about of 100 - 150 persons.

My musical preference are rock, metal and EDM.

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[fatmarley]

Loudspeaker design Is a lot more complicated and Involved than people think (especially the crossover). Active Is much easier and you'll reach your goal a lot quicker (It took me a couple of years to get my simple, passive, 2-way speakers to sound any good)

Here's some Info on crossover design to get you started - LINK

Something like this would be a much safer bet - Fuson-15 (coupled with a subwoofer)

Or maybe something ready made from Tekton Design would give you what you want.

 

[goodguys]

Using a second amp to drive the bass units is always a good idea. Bass crossovers tend to be complicated and easy to get wrong,
and it will be much easier to match up the drive units in terms of sensitivity and frequency response as most active crossovers have a volume control on the outputs,
so if you prefer a bassy type of sound you can simply turn up the gain on the crossover to achieve this

 

[picowallspeaker]

If you go on with "scaling", what is a good match for a 18" woofer ?

Ohhh! You lose point source with such big membranes !
SO, thinking of ideal point source - not double drivers or array - a 10 " is a midrange.
For tweeter, as we are already in the high sensitivity/efficiency territory, a compression driver is selected - though it needs a horn.

The crossover is the same as a normal home system, the 10 " will have a 100-200 uF capacitor on its path and the woofer will have a low R inductor.

(BTW where's Inductor ???! )

 

[Butaboy]

Thanks for all the replies guys, really appreciate it.

I definitely don't want to purchase a pre-built system as you suggest fatmarley, I want to go diy.

I don't mind using an active crossover, seems like it will save me alot of headache any way. Maybe this one will suffice:

https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-Su...d=1498713566&sr=8-2&keywords=active+crossover

What are your thoughts?

the Ultimax 18" are rated at 1000 RMS @ 4 ohms, are you saying a 10" midrange will a good match? What should be the power rating of the 10"?

Can I not use a smaller size, like an 8" midrange? 8" seems more aesthetically pleasing.

For the tweeter/horns, what power rating should these have?

 

[FinBot]

That sub will go deep, but the cost of all that Xmax and low reach is sensitivity, meaning it is suited for home theatre in a home at lower volumes. it probably wont be loud enough for a bigger room/outdoors.

Good sound is in the mids, so I would start with that, then find drivers to match.

The 8" B&C coaxials are great, and easy to mount in a small cabinet for home listening. Those subs would not likely keep up. Use a pro audio driver instead, like a B&C 15" sub.

Power ratings: A way to match is start at 1watt, doubleing untill you get to near the power rating of the speaker, adding 3db to each doubling.
Double the power to 2 watts = + 3db.
Then double again 4 watts = +6db.
Once you run out of power, say 1024watts = +30db you can see the max voluem
90 + 30 = 110db.

Take the B&C mids, being 96db sensitive.
300 watts = 24db = 96+24 = 120db

So that sub is 10db queter at max volume. I like to run my subs at 6db less than the mids for fat sound. So id say you are short by 16db. That alot.

So I think that sub would not keep up.

Thus, if you want powerful, go for pro Audio.

 

[Butaboy]

Thanks for the help.
So I've looked at the B&C Midrange speakers and they look great.
What are your thoughts on this subwoofer: https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rss460ho-4-18-reference-ho-subwoofer-4-ohm--295-472

They are more sensitive than the ultimax while at the same time can go really low.

Also if I use the B&C Coaxials, do I need tweeters or horns?

 

[LineSource]

Many proven designs use: 1" -> 12" -> 18"

Maximus-18 DIY Sound Group

1" compression driver capable of >18kHz on waveguide/horn like:
---B&C DE250 compression driver
--- $35 SEOS15 waveguide -OR-
--- $10 QSC PL-000446GP PRV WG35-25-B 90° x 60° waveguide (I use this one)

12" midbass in a sealed cabinet for great transients, capable of 1,300Hz and ~150Hz crossovers to cover down to the baffle step
--- Eminence Deltalite 12"
--- Eminence Delta Pro-12A
--- Faital 12FH510

18" woofer which can sound musical above the baffle step frequency(150-200Hz)
--- Peavey LoRider 18"
--- Faital 18FH500
--- B&C
--- B&C 18TBX100

You will need to decide between a subwoofer like the 18" Dayton ultimax, and a prosound 18" woofer like the Peavey LoRider

 

[Butaboy]

Thanks for the answer.

However if I was to diy this system, I would have to make the crossover which one user already said a 3 way crossover is way too complicated for a beginner like me.

Coming back to the coaxials, they can go to 20 kHz. If I use these will I still need the horns/waveguide?

 

[LineSource]

diyAudio, diysoundgroup, and avsforum have a few proven-excellent passive crossover designs for popular 12" midbass speakers and 1" compression drivers(Google: econowave). If you bi-amp with an active Hi+Lo crossover, you can use these excellent Tweeter-Midrange 2-way passive crossovers with a wide selection of direct-drive 18" woofers -- since with bi-amping a woofer with similar SPL/watt is no longer required.

There are a few 3-way passive crossover designs using high efficiency 18" woofers which match the efficiency of the 12" midbass, so only one amplifier is required. Attached example uses a proven-excellent crossover for popular 1" + 12" drivers, plus adds 5-components for the woofer. (~$650 for drivers + crossover)

 

[Butaboy]

Thanks for the advice.

One member suggested that I use the active crossover with 2 amps, one for the highs and one for the lows. I'm now leaning towards this approach as it seems to give a lot more options to customize the entire setup. I just need to match the SPL.

I did some research on the econowave and its seems like a really great idea for what I'm looking. Can you recommend specific designs or 1" cmpression driver and midbass driver along with the crossover that will give me the performance I'm looking for?

I can get the woofers on my own, with a pro woofer looking better as I research more and more, looking at the B&C Woofers.

 

[LineSource]

Can you recommend specific designs or 1" cmpression driver and midbass driver along with the crossover that will give me the performance I'm looking for?

I'll bump this discussion with the common questions for finding proven designs using: 1" -> 12" -> 18"

a) What is your budget?
b) Will you bi-amp (1)W, (2)TM?
c) If you bi-amp, will you use an active crossover for each (1)W, (2)TM?
(For bass, ported vs. sealed and equalized, is a future discussion IF you do not purchase a proven kit.)
d) Do you favor one large cabinet(like my BIG), which will be more volume efficient since the woofer can use the air volume behind the TM sealed box.
Do you favor two cabinets (1)W, (2)TM? More work, more expensive, more flexible.
e) Can you build cabinets, or do you want pre-cut cabinets you can assemble with limited power tools(drill and maybe router)?
======================
Between these sites you can find the parts, kits, and pre-cut cabinets. diysoundgroup has more EconoWave type complete kits your could purchase.(like Fusion12, HT12, and Maximus18)

Home page DIY Sound Group
and
Parts Express: the #1 source for audio, video & speaker building components

 

[Butaboy]

Thanks again for your help.

To answer your questions:
a) $1,400 for the drivers for both cabinets (1" compression driver X 2, 12" midbass X 2, 18" woofer X 2 and 2 passive crossovers between the compression driver and midbass)
b) Yes, I will Bi-amp. I'm looking at the Behringer NU6000 for the lows and NU3000 for the highs, however I've not settled on these until further research. The NU3000 will power the compression driver and the midbass (will have a passive crossover sit between these two).
c) I plan on using one hi-low crossover between the mixer and amps.
d) I'm going ported as this seems to yield higher volumes, but I'm open to suggestions.
e) I prefer a design like yours, one big cabinet that houses both TM & W. On a side note, I know most speakers have a recommended enclosure size; but with a big cabinet like yours, which I assume is larger than the recommended enclosure size, does this mean the woofer will under perform? or will it sound better?
f) Yes, I will build the cabinets myself from scratch once I work out the dimensions.

Thanks in advance for your help.

 

[chris661]

IMO, don't let them persuade you to go for ProSound 18"ers, unless you really want high efficiency bass down to 40Hz. The Ultimax 18" moves far more air, and would give much more bass extension in a smaller cabinet, at the expense of efficiency.

For domestic use, I'd go for the extra LF extension every time.

Chris

 

[Butaboy]

Thanks for the advice Chris.

Efficiency is important, also while a lot of bass is always nice I've grown to appreciate that the mids are where I enjoy music the most; bright vocals and bright instruments with balanced bass.

 

[freddi]

maybe you could ask "here" and the Klipsch forums about a horn loaded system approach rather than direct radiator. LF cutoff would be higher than the reflex (or sealed) - sound quality could be good.

 

[Butaboy]

These subs B&C 18RBX100-4 18" Professional Subwoofer 4 Ohm seems far better than the Ultimax.

 

[hollowboy]

These subs B&C 18RBX100-4 18" Professional Subwoofer 4 Ohm seems far better than the Ultimax.

You have to pick which is more important:

The Ultimax has more Xmax, so if everything else is equal, it will be (roughly) 3dB louder <40Hz when pushed to its limits.

The B&C can use a higher crossover point, and being much more efficient, will need less power and/or play louder when "filling a large room with about of 100 - 150 persons".

I suggest you try some simulation software to compare the Ultimax versus the excellent advice / shopping list LineSource gave you, and you'll get an idea of their relative merits. I use Hornresp for simulation. It allows you to compare the SPL of different bass systems at their excursion limits, which is important when you might be using 3,000 watts. There are many other software options.

Note that with a big box and an efficient driver, the driver might reach its excursion limits at relatively low power. The NU6000 could be overkill. With $4k to spend, I'd personally go for A rather than B:

A) (pro drivers, low power)
$2000 drivers
$1000 timber
$500 electronics
$500 miscellaneous

B) (subs, high power)
$1500 drivers
$500 timber
$1500 electronics
$500 miscellaneous

a) $1,400 for the drivers for both cabinets (1" compression driver X 2, 12" midbass X 2, 18" woofer X 2 and 2 passive crossovers between the compression driver and midbass)

Normally the woofers hit their limits first. One 12" midbass is probably enough. Punch them into a simulator and check.

Coming back to the coaxials, they can go to 20 kHz. If I use these will I still need the horns/waveguide?

No, they are an integral part of the coaxial. You'd still need a crossover.

Don't forget to budget about $500 for your measurement microphone, cables, paint, screws, etc. The little stuff adds up.

 

[jmproductions]

These subs B&C 18RBX100-4 18" Professional Subwoofer 4 Ohm seems far better than the Ultimax.

Apples to Oranges. The Ultimax is more designed for home theater use and will extend much deeper freq. The pro driver will be way louder but not do much below 40Hz.

What type of PA use are you going to do with this system?

 

[GM]

Says musical preference is rock, metal and EDM, so no real 'sub' required, only a prosound one, though EDM may require dual big 'subs'/channel for the 100-150 folk's room; thinking THs are a better choice over simple reflex.

GM