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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Horn+fullrange
Horn+fullrange
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Old 20th June 2017, 05:07 AM   #1
naca5 is offline naca5  Belgium
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Default Horn+fullrange

Hi,

I'm aware there is a relation between a CD (with a Fq and a crossover recommended point) and a horn.
A 500Hz CD will not go lower than 500Hz even with a 300Hz horn.

But what happens when you use a fullrange?
Fullrange doesn't have a limit (at least in the Fq range that a domestic horn can handle)

I ask it because I saw this:
BD-Design - DIY Oris horns
Seems to be something ala Le Cleach, and 77cm for 150 Hz (this is the xover point I like much).

But when I check specs on horns-diy website, a 96cm Le Cleach gives only 25OHz?
JMLC-200 - Horns by Auto-Tech

So anybody can tell me if there is something wrong?

Thanks
Chris
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:35 AM   #2
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by naca5 View Post
I'm aware there is a relation between a CD (with a Fq and a crossover recommended point) and a horn.
A 500Hz CD will not go lower than 500Hz even with a 300Hz horn.
What do you mean by CD and horn? Constant directivity?
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:37 AM   #3
gkh is offline gkh  Austria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICG View Post
What do you mean by CD and horn? Constant directivity?
To me it looks like he means a compression driver.
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Old 20th June 2017, 06:48 AM   #4
naca5 is offline naca5  Belgium
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Right compression driver, sorry
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Old 20th June 2017, 07:51 AM   #5
ICG is offline ICG  Germany
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Location: I had a Déjà Moo - I've seen that BS before!
These are no exception. In the best case you get below 250Hz no dispersion control and lower spl, in the worst case you limit the spl and dynamic to what the wide band driver is capable of without horn. That means, you've got a horn speaker without the most advantages. I find it strange almost every 'high end' horn manufacturer claims to be a lot better than all the others and yet they practically all fail to provide any evidence or measurement to prove their claims.

BTW I'm not a big fan of spherical horns, they beam very much at the upper end, radiate broad at the lower end, are huge and very expensive.
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Old 20th June 2017, 07:53 AM   #6
naca5 is offline naca5  Belgium
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Thanks. Any idea of which non spherical horn I can use to have the lower point ?
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:16 AM   #7
Scott L is offline Scott L  United States
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Horn+fullrange
Quote:
Originally Posted by naca5 View Post
Hi,

I'm aware there is a relation between a CD (with a Fq and a crossover recommended point) and a horn.
A 500Hz CD will not go lower than 500Hz even with a 300Hz horn.

But what happens when you use a fullrange?
Fullrange doesn't have a limit (at least in the Fq range that a domestic horn can handle)

I ask it because I saw this:
BD-Design - DIY Oris horns
Seems to be something ala Le Cleach, and 77cm for 150 Hz (this is the xover point I like much).

But when I check specs on horns-diy website, a 96cm Le Cleach gives only 25OHz?
JMLC-200 - Horns by Auto-Tech

So anybody can tell me if there is something wrong?

Thanks
Chris
Because the ORIS is a tractrix curve and the jmlc-200 is a Le Cleach, the actual effective horn sizes are somewhat different from one another. Also, look at the difference between the two, with respect to throat/mouth size ratio. The ORIS is made for an 8 inch full-range (wide band) driver. In my opinion, all speaker designs have inherent compromises, but the ORIS, since it allows a greater degree of mid range coverage, sounds more musically pleasing. The problem with all these 500Hz compression driver horns, is they fall short with respect to integrity of the mid range. Sure, they will play much louder than a cone loaded horn, but do not sound as good. 500Hz is not a very good crossover point. Furthermore, many compression drivers fail to even get as low as 500Hz. Matching a horn loaded compression driver to a direct radiator cone bass driver is very difficult, if not down right impossible. Besides, the system efficiency is ultimately dictated by the lowest used. Thus, having a CD/horn covering from 500, or, 750 up that is capable of 112 db/watt really doesn't do much good in the real world when your bass section can only do 97 db at best. Big heffin' mid-bass horns should be used for the lower mid range/ upper bass when a CD/ horn is used for mids and highs, and then you will have to allow an appreciable listening distance for those to "gel" together. Yes, best used in very large rooms.
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:24 AM   #8
picowallspeaker is offline picowallspeaker  Italy
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Furthermore, a fullrange is generally light i.e. paper cone
Quote:
But what happens when you use a fullrange?
Fullrange doesn't have a limit
at the throath entrance of the horn the pressure is higher than the typical application at π/2 steradiants
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:43 AM   #9
naca5 is offline naca5  Belgium
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott L View Post
Because the ORIS is a tractrix curve and the jmlc-200 is a Le Cleach, the actual effective horn sizes are somewhat different from one another. Also, look at the difference between the two, with respect to throat/mouth size ratio. The ORIS is made for an 8 inch full-range (wide band) driver. In my opinion, all speaker designs have inherent compromises, but the ORIS, since it allows a greater degree of mid range coverage, sounds more musically pleasing. The problem with all these 500Hz compression driver horns, is they fall short with respect to integrity of the mid range. Sure, they will play much louder than a cone loaded horn, but do not sound as good. 500Hz is not a very good crossover point. Furthermore, many compression drivers fail to even get as low as 500Hz. Matching a horn loaded compression driver to a direct radiator cone bass driver is very difficult, if not down right impossible. Besides, the system efficiency is ultimately dictated by the lowest used. Thus, having a CD/horn covering from 500, or, 750 up that is capable of 112 db/watt really doesn't do much good in the real world when your bass section can only do 97 db at best. Big heffin' mid-bass horns should be used for the lower mid range/ upper bass when a CD/ horn is used for mids and highs, and then you will have to allow an appreciable listening distance for those to "gel" together. Yes, best used in very large rooms.


Right that's why I was loooking for a horn who can handle a full range to cut @150.
But doesn't sound easy to find, I may keep my OB's then ;-)
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:59 AM   #10
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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The Oris has been cut short at the mouth, and the rollover is not part of the original curve. 77cm is the smallest width that in theory holds 150Hz. Either way there might be reflections from the incomplete mouth.
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