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Old 18th June 2017, 09:22 PM   #1
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Default Midrange and tweeter for dual 7" illuminator

All,
I have had this design in mind for almost 5 years but thinking of pulling the trigger now.

Here are the broad parameters:
1. Size: Roughly speaking 40" tall, 9" to 10" wide and 14" to 15" deep (so about 80 - 90 liters)
2. Woofers: Dual 7" Scanspeak illuminators

In terms of listening:
1. Consumption is 50% music and movies
2. Music is Jazz/ Classic Rock/ R&B and Indian music (Sufi music)
4. Music source is entirely streaming - Spotify premium or a couple of apps that stream Indian music at 320kbps
5. Denon x4200 receiver and funk 18.0c subwoofer

I prefer sound that's got tight & punchy bass but still on the warm/neutral sound. Given that a lot of the Indian music is not recorded very well, speakers that are too analytical can get fatiguing. I had really enjoyed combo of Bryston Amp and Dynaudio C1.

I would like to get this group's recommendations on Midrange and tweeters:

Tweeter: While my mind is on RAAL 70-10, I am wondering if a Beryllium would fit my needs better. If so, which one would you recommend? 3 Berylliums I have looked at are:
a. ScanSpeak D2908/7140 Beryllium Dome Revelator
b. Scanspeak Illuminator D3004/6640-00 1" Tweeter Beryllium Dome
c. TRANSDUCER LAB N28BE


Mid-range: This is where the field is wide open and I have many candidates:
a. Accuton: 2" Ceeramic dome (C50-8-044) or 5" ceramic dome (C90-6-079) or 5" Cell (C90-6-724)
b. Audiotechnology 15H52 or 18H52
c. Scanspeak 18M-4631 or new 18M-8631 (troelsgravesen called it at par with his favourite 18H52)
d. Eton magnesium cone ("Arcosia" 4-31)


Thanks for your feedback.
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Old 19th June 2017, 05:11 AM   #2
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Location: SiliconValley
If two 18WU drivers are good, would not three be even better?

Revisit Troels TM Illuminator Monitor build which uses the ScanSpeak 18WU/8741T00 driver paired with either 7100 or 6600 tweeters, a reduced diffraction beveled-edge cabinet, and a crossover with LC delay network for TM time alignment.
Illuminator-Monitor

Phonar Credo reference speakers also use the ScanSpeak 18WU for the midrange, and run two-paired for the woofers. Troels clone? A DSP woofer amplifier option is available.
Credo reference

The narrow RAAL 70-10 ribbon tweeter is often voiced with the Accuton midrange drivers.
C173-8-094 "value"
C173-6-090 "new tech"

The SB_Acoustics Satori drivers are considered fair priced highend products.
Proven combination:
6 SATORI MR16P-4 midbass with underhung motor
1.1" dome TW29RN for dynamics

I'm listening to the 7 SATORI MW19P-4 midbass with the modest cost SB29RDC-4 tweeter.
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:45 AM   #3
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I think Be makes more sense when wanting to cross low and still get good extension up high. A ribbon could make a lot of sense if you dont mind the vertical polar response a ribbon gives. They're usually higher efficiency than a dome. I just tested the fountek neocd 2.0 and although its below your price range it clocks in over 95db/w.
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Old 20th June 2017, 03:47 AM   #4
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I once heard Selah Audio speaker called "Mejor," with 7" aluminum cone Illuminator and RAAL 140-20 tweeter, plus sub. All active with DEQX linear phase xo. Wow, that was incredible, one of the best speakers I've ever heard. So maybe a 2 way would work, plus sub instead of your planned 3 way.

For a 3 way +18" sub I'd rather use larger woofer than 7" for better acoustic impedance, especially if you like to play at lower volume where smaller cones lose grip.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
The SB_Acoustics Satori drivers are considered fair priced highend products.
Proven combination:
6” SATORI MR16P-4 midbass with underhung motor
1.1" dome TW29RN for dynamics
Question: Why is 96dB TW29RN a better choice to go with 92dB MR16P-4 than the 92dB TW29R (ferrite)? Does the stronger motor and presumably faster transient response outweigh the "dynamic sandbag" resistors needed for tweeter attenuation?

I'm planning a build with MR16P-4, I already have TW29R and love them. Seems like a match made in heaven with the new Satori mid. But I see Troels and others always choosing the neo Satoris with big attenuation pads while the ferrite seems like crazy sister in the attic now. Love to hear opinions on this. Thx
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Old 20th June 2017, 08:59 AM   #5
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All,

Thank you your feedback.

All,

Thank you for your feedback.

1. I found a speaker from PBN called B741 that quite closely matches what I was looking for. So I might take a look.
2. I don't have any experience building myself but have worked with a few of the well known speaker designers who have been doing it for 10+ years. While I am going to get their opinion, I always benefit from getting opinion on these forums from people who know their stuff.
3. One reason I like B741 is because even though I will work with someone who has probably built 100s of different cross-overs, I firmly believe getting a speaker right takes many iterations, 100s of hours of testing to get the combo of drivers, enclosures, cross-overs and other variables right. So the person isn't going to be able to do that level of refinement for a one-off piece. Where if it is an existing design, hopefully the designer has gone through that pain and testing. So any other recommendations would be helpful. Key criteria being:

1. Speaker footprint - height 40", width 10" and depth 15"
2. Sound that's warm/ neutral while still punchy and anything but muddy
3. Top notch drivers from Scanspeak/ Accuton/ RAAL - call it irrational fascination

Otherwise as of right now I am leaning towards:
1. Duall 7" illuminator
2. 5" accuton midrange - older ceramic dome (C90-6-079) or Cell (C90-6-724
3. RAAL 70-10 or SS Be
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Old 20th June 2017, 01:29 PM   #6
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If you want a warmer sound then the accutons might not be suited.
You could do a killer 3 way with Satori drivers without breaking the bank
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Old 20th June 2017, 02:24 PM   #7
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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OP, you should talk to your speaker designer and instruct him to make a warmer sounding crossover design.
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Old 20th June 2017, 04:32 PM   #8
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The issue with line sources is they are going to have less ceiling and floor bounce, so have better clarity at a distance.

You should also consider the latest Satori Be tweeter which at least on paper, is pretty awesome.

I'm not sure however that either of these drivers are going to work well for your needs. You mention not wanting anything too analytical. You may have an easier time with a traditional dome which has some drop-off in the top octave. They can be easier to get to sound right for some.

Best,


E

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marrduk24 View Post
All,
I have had this design in mind for almost 5 years but thinking of pulling the trigger now.

Here are the broad parameters:
1. Size: Roughly speaking 40" tall, 9" to 10" wide and 14" to 15" deep (so about 80 - 90 liters)
2. Woofers: Dual 7" Scanspeak illuminators

In terms of listening:
1. Consumption is 50% music and movies
2. Music is Jazz/ Classic Rock/ R&B and Indian music (Sufi music)
4. Music source is entirely streaming - Spotify premium or a couple of apps that stream Indian music at 320kbps
5. Denon x4200 receiver and funk 18.0c subwoofer

I prefer sound that's got tight & punchy bass but still on the warm/neutral sound. Given that a lot of the Indian music is not recorded very well, speakers that are too analytical can get fatiguing. I had really enjoyed combo of Bryston Amp and Dynaudio C1.

I would like to get this group's recommendations on Midrange and tweeters:

Tweeter: While my mind is on RAAL 70-10, I am wondering if a Beryllium would fit my needs better. If so, which one would you recommend? 3 Berylliums I have looked at are:
a. ScanSpeak D2908/7140 Beryllium Dome Revelator
b. Scanspeak Illuminator D3004/6640-00 1" Tweeter Beryllium Dome
c. TRANSDUCER LAB N28BE


Mid-range: This is where the field is wide open and I have many candidates:
a. Accuton: 2" Ceeramic dome (C50-8-044) or 5" ceramic dome (C90-6-079) or 5" Cell (C90-6-724)
b. Audiotechnology 15H52 or 18H52
c. Scanspeak 18M-4631 or new 18M-8631 (troelsgravesen called it at par with his favourite 18H52)
d. Eton magnesium cone ("Arcosia" 4-31)


Thanks for your feedback.
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Old 20th June 2017, 11:28 PM   #9
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You should check out Selah Audio. Rick has a number of designs using the drivers you are interested in, available completed or kit form:

Speakers ? Selah Audio
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