Midrange and tweeter for dual 7" illuminator

[Marrduk24]

All,
I have had this design in mind for almost 5 years but thinking of pulling the trigger now.

Here are the broad parameters:
1. Size: Roughly speaking 40" tall, 9" to 10" wide and 14" to 15" deep (so about 80 - 90 liters)
2. Woofers: Dual 7" Scanspeak illuminators

In terms of listening:
1. Consumption is 50% music and movies
2. Music is Jazz/ Classic Rock/ R&B and Indian music (Sufi music)
4. Music source is entirely streaming - Spotify premium or a couple of apps that stream Indian music at 320kbps
5. Denon x4200 receiver and funk 18.0c subwoofer

I prefer sound that's got tight & punchy bass but still on the warm/neutral sound. Given that a lot of the Indian music is not recorded very well, speakers that are too analytical can get fatiguing. I had really enjoyed combo of Bryston Amp and Dynaudio C1.

I would like to get this group's recommendations on Midrange and tweeters:

Tweeter: While my mind is on RAAL 70-10, I am wondering if a Beryllium would fit my needs better. If so, which one would you recommend? 3 Berylliums I have looked at are:
a. ScanSpeak D2908/7140 Beryllium Dome Revelator
b. Scanspeak Illuminator D3004/6640-00 1" Tweeter Beryllium Dome
c. TRANSDUCER LAB N28BE


Mid-range: This is where the field is wide open and I have many candidates:
a. Accuton: 2" Ceeramic dome (C50-8-044) or 5" ceramic dome (C90-6-079) or 5" Cell (C90-6-724)
b. Audiotechnology 15H52 or 18H52
c. Scanspeak 18M-4631 or new 18M-8631 (troelsgravesen called it at par with his favourite 18H52)
d. Eton magnesium cone ("Arcosia" 4-31)


Thanks for your feedback.

 

[LineSource]

If two 18WU drivers are good, would not three be even better?

Revisit Troels TM Illuminator Monitor build which uses the ScanSpeak 18WU/8741T00 driver paired with either 7100 or 6600 tweeters, a reduced diffraction beveled-edge cabinet, and a crossover with LC delay network for TM time alignment.
Illuminator-Monitor

Phonar Credo reference speakers also use the ScanSpeak 18WU for the midrange, and run two-paired for the woofers. Troels clone? A DSP woofer amplifier option is available.
Credo reference

The narrow RAAL 70-10 ribbon tweeter is often voiced with the Accuton midrange drivers.
C173-8-094 "value"
C173-6-090 "new tech"

The SB_Acoustics Satori drivers are considered fair priced highend products.
Proven combination:
6½” SATORI MR16P-4 midbass with underhung motor
1.1" dome TW29RN for dynamics

I'm listening to the 7½” SATORI MW19P-4 midbass with the modest cost SB29RDC-4 tweeter.

 

[tuxedocivic]

I think Be makes more sense when wanting to cross low and still get good extension up high. A ribbon could make a lot of sense if you dont mind the vertical polar response a ribbon gives. They're usually higher efficiency than a dome. I just tested the fountek neocd 2.0 and although its below your price range it clocks in over 95db/w.

 

[Richidoo]

I once heard Selah Audio speaker called "Mejor," with 7" aluminum cone Illuminator and RAAL 140-20 tweeter, plus sub. All active with DEQX linear phase xo. Wow, that was incredible, one of the best speakers I've ever heard. So maybe a 2 way would work, plus sub instead of your planned 3 way.

For a 3 way +18" sub I'd rather use larger woofer than 7" for better acoustic impedance, especially if you like to play at lower volume where smaller cones lose grip.

The SB_Acoustics Satori drivers are considered fair priced highend products.
Proven combination:
6½” SATORI MR16P-4 midbass with underhung motor
1.1" dome TW29RN for dynamics

Question: Why is 96dB TW29RN a better choice to go with 92dB MR16P-4 than the 92dB TW29R (ferrite)? Does the stronger motor and presumably faster transient response outweigh the "dynamic sandbag" resistors needed for tweeter attenuation?

I'm planning a build with MR16P-4, I already have TW29R and love them. Seems like a match made in heaven with the new Satori mid. But I see Troels and others always choosing the neo Satoris with big attenuation pads while the ferrite seems like crazy sister in the attic now. Love to hear opinions on this. Thx

 

[Marrduk24]

All,

Thank you your feedback.

All,

Thank you for your feedback.

1. I found a speaker from PBN called B741 that quite closely matches what I was looking for. So I might take a look.
2. I don't have any experience building myself but have worked with a few of the well known speaker designers who have been doing it for 10+ years. While I am going to get their opinion, I always benefit from getting opinion on these forums from people who know their stuff.
3. One reason I like B741 is because even though I will work with someone who has probably built 100s of different cross-overs, I firmly believe getting a speaker right takes many iterations, 100s of hours of testing to get the combo of drivers, enclosures, cross-overs and other variables right. So the person isn't going to be able to do that level of refinement for a one-off piece. Where if it is an existing design, hopefully the designer has gone through that pain and testing. So any other recommendations would be helpful. Key criteria being:

1. Speaker footprint - height 40", width 10" and depth 15"
2. Sound that's warm/ neutral while still punchy and anything but muddy
3. Top notch drivers from Scanspeak/ Accuton/ RAAL - call it irrational fascination

Otherwise as of right now I am leaning towards:
1. Duall 7" illuminator
2. 5" accuton midrange - older ceramic dome (C90-6-079) or Cell (C90-6-724
3. RAAL 70-10 or SS Be

 

[Bill poster]

If you want a warmer sound then the accutons might not be suited.
You could do a killer 3 way with Satori drivers without breaking the bank

 

[Lojzek]

OP, you should talk to your speaker designer and instruct him to make a warmer sounding crossover design.

 

[eriksquires]

The issue with line sources is they are going to have less ceiling and floor bounce, so have better clarity at a distance.

You should also consider the latest Satori Be tweeter which at least on paper, is pretty awesome.

I'm not sure however that either of these drivers are going to work well for your needs. You mention not wanting anything too analytical. You may have an easier time with a traditional dome which has some drop-off in the top octave. They can be easier to get to sound right for some.

Best,


E

All,
I have had this design in mind for almost 5 years but thinking of pulling the trigger now.

Here are the broad parameters:
1. Size: Roughly speaking 40" tall, 9" to 10" wide and 14" to 15" deep (so about 80 - 90 liters)
2. Woofers: Dual 7" Scanspeak illuminators

In terms of listening:
1. Consumption is 50% music and movies
2. Music is Jazz/ Classic Rock/ R&B and Indian music (Sufi music)
4. Music source is entirely streaming - Spotify premium or a couple of apps that stream Indian music at 320kbps
5. Denon x4200 receiver and funk 18.0c subwoofer

I prefer sound that's got tight & punchy bass but still on the warm/neutral sound. Given that a lot of the Indian music is not recorded very well, speakers that are too analytical can get fatiguing. I had really enjoyed combo of Bryston Amp and Dynaudio C1.

I would like to get this group's recommendations on Midrange and tweeters:

Tweeter: While my mind is on RAAL 70-10, I am wondering if a Beryllium would fit my needs better. If so, which one would you recommend? 3 Berylliums I have looked at are:
a. ScanSpeak D2908/7140 Beryllium Dome Revelator
b. Scanspeak Illuminator D3004/6640-00 1" Tweeter Beryllium Dome
c. TRANSDUCER LAB N28BE


Mid-range: This is where the field is wide open and I have many candidates:
a. Accuton: 2" Ceeramic dome (C50-8-044) or 5" ceramic dome (C90-6-079) or 5" Cell (C90-6-724)
b. Audiotechnology 15H52 or 18H52
c. Scanspeak 18M-4631 or new 18M-8631 (troelsgravesen called it at par with his favourite 18H52)
d. Eton magnesium cone ("Arcosia" 4-31)


Thanks for your feedback.

 

[MarkB1]

You should check out Selah Audio. Rick has a number of designs using the drivers you are interested in, available completed or kit form:

Speakers ? Selah Audio

 

[LineSource]

I found a speaker from PBN called B741 that quite closely matches what I was looking for. So I might take a look.

The PBN 741 looks like a proven, well engineered speaker. The ScanSpeak 12mu_4731T00 Illuminator uses similar cone construction, motor, suspension and surround material as your 18WU and should have a similar "sonic signature". The 12mu will blend well with a 2,500Hz crossover to the Be tweeter. No stress, no strain on either side. From your posts, I think this speaker offers the detailed sound you are seaking. There are positive reviews, and a build thread on the avsforum to help your decision.

Scanspeak B741 build - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

A claimed frequency response of 25Hz-40kHz, +/-1dB, and a sensitivity of 92dB/2.83V/m. Note that the DIY cabinet plans include beveled edges to reduce diffraction. Most pictures show easy-cut sharp edges. The impedance is a nominal 4 ohms that dips down to 3 ohms at 500Hz, which can challenge small tube amps. The crossover frequencies are 250Hz (the woofers are run in tandem) and 2500Hz, via a 24dB/octave slope. PBN says that the B741 is phase coherent, and that the baffle’s backtilt offers some degree of time alignment. Perfect time alignment is not possible with a fourth-order crossover network.

-Discuss the PBN 741 slanted baffle time alignment crossovers with your expert.
-Discuss Troels Illuminator Monitor L-C time delay ladder on the tweeter crossover with your expert.
---this time-delay crossover could match a ribbon tweeter delay to a cone midrange delay

===probably the main alternative path=== modern low-Le 6" midrange drivers with 1750-2000Hz tweeter and 150-200Hz woofer crossover
--modest cost Satori MR16P_4 has Sd 119cm2 and offers dynamics and detail from a low Mms from underhung motor plus very low Le.

 

[ICG]

I'm not sure however that either of these drivers are going to work well for your needs. You mention not wanting anything too analytical.

I see it the same. All the listed mid- and tweeter drivers are very analytic. I afraid none of these will match your desired goal, except maybe the Scanspeak 18M-4631. But that's not a mid driver, in fact ALL of your 'mid' drivers except the Accuton are bass-mid drivers, these are the same size as the bass and would rather replace the Illuminators. I would not mix completely different membrane material drivers, it often sounds inhomogene.

I have some questions.

• Do you have experience in developing speakers and measurement equipment?
• Why 3 way?
• Do you want an active or passive setup?