Are the drivers themselves still stored as .wdr files? If so just upload those and I will play around with them in my version.
The Eminence still looks to be the better driver with a flatter response. It doesnt start rolling off till it gets below around 45hz.
The Dayton 12 starts rolling off 70hz and really starts getting bad below 60hz.
By the time I hit 40hz its down 6db v the Eminence which is enough to be noticed....
And making the enclosure bigger for that driver doesnt really make its response any deeper.
The Dayton 12 starts rolling off 70hz and really starts getting bad below 60hz.
By the time I hit 40hz its down 6db v the Eminence which is enough to be noticed....
And making the enclosure bigger for that driver doesnt really make its response any deeper.
Waynes suggestion was a good one. The 96 db sensitivity will be useful keeping up with the compression driver on top. There are lots more options. I don't know where you've been looking so far. Waynes designs are good and that wouldn't be a crazy path to follow.
Parts-express.com , Loudspeakersplus.com, USSpeaker.com all have good supplies of high efficiency drivers which is what you want. You can look at specs for a long time and not really know the difference between drivers. Doing some reading and finding what other people like helps. I'm sure other people can kick in some sites to check but for high efficiency drivers these are good places to look. Solen.ca, Madisound.com and others around.
The suggestion of a sub makes sense if you listen to music with a lot of low notes. The suggestion of going active means you would need 2-3 amps but make the crossover part of the equation a lot easier and very flexible.
Have fun.
Grant.
I do not see that in the sims at all. What box size and tuning are you using?
WinISD shows almost identical low end response for these drivers in a 2ft ported box for the Eminence and a 1.5ft ported box for the Dayton. The difference is sensitivity. If the Eminence is playing at 1.5 volts, the Dayton will need to be at 2 volts for the same SPL.
As for the top end response, it's hard to say. The measurements are done under different conditions. It seems that the Dayton doesn't have the top end rise that the Emmy does, but with the different measurements, it's difficult to compare. Either driver should be easy to crossover.
I certainly agree with Pilover that you want high efficiency. The kit with the Delta 12A is a Jeff Bagby design, and Jeff really knows what he's doing. I just threw the Dayton into the mix as a comparison.
I've attached a zip file containing the project files I've been playing with. Apologies on the late response as I didnt see this till just now. Also which screens are you looking at? I'm looking at the SPL screen rather than the Max SPL screen.
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OK, Thanks for the files, I see what you are doing now. You're using a low tuning the results in an Extended Bass Shelf response. That can be handy if you have room gain, which you probably will. I don't know the tuning of the Jeff Bagby kit.
If you look at SPL and put all drivers at 2.3V, the Delta 12 is the clear winner. If you put the Dayon in a 1.5 ft box and tune it to ~50Hz, it won't play as low as the others, but will have more low mid. The Definmax in 2ft tuned to 48Hz looks pretty darn good, for SPL, but group delay suffers. It's all about trade-offs.
If you look at SPL and put all drivers at 2.3V, the Delta 12 is the clear winner. If you put the Dayon in a 1.5 ft box and tune it to ~50Hz, it won't play as low as the others, but will have more low mid. The Definmax in 2ft tuned to 48Hz looks pretty darn good, for SPL, but group delay suffers. It's all about trade-offs.
I will take a look tonight when I get home. My goal was to try and hit a 40hz tune with whatever driver I was using.
I plan to use this with a sub, but I'd prefer something I dont "have" to have a sub with to get 90% of musical instruments....
50hz may still be "OK" but I need to look at the graphs. If it means a smaller box then I may go with that, however it depends on how large a port I need as well.
I'm hoping to go with a more cost effective driver than the Definimax, but at a 40hz tune its hard to beat but the Dayton comes close in my graphs and thats without room gain which may make the differences moot between the two drivers.
I was kinda going by these graphs to see what I'd be "missing" based on tuning frequency.
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IMHO, it might be worth going for a pair of 12"s a side in sealed boxes and EQing the bottom end. You can hit 1Hz that way, albeit quietly. 25Hz would be easily attainable, though, if you're not after PA system SPLs.
I'd probably make it a 2.5-way setup to keep the mid-high crossover reasonably simple.
Chris
I'd probably make it a 2.5-way setup to keep the mid-high crossover reasonably simple.
Chris
What you will miss under 50Hz depends on the music genre. For most music there is a roll off under 80Hz. At least according to the all the analysis I've done seen published. Bass really peaks around 100Hz. Not that you won't hear the difference with a speaker that rolls off under 50Hz vs an octave lower, but for most music a good, solid 45-50Hz is nicely bassy. EDM would need more low end, of course.
If it's in the budget and box size, I'd say go with the Delta 12. Seeing Jeff's measurements is quite reassuring. It's going to sound very solid and clean.
If it's in the budget and box size, I'd say go with the Delta 12. Seeing Jeff's measurements is quite reassuring. It's going to sound very solid and clean.
If you're not sqeamish about adding an electronic filter or you're going to add a xover for a sub, then 6th order ported is a cinch; if using a sub full time, sealed in aabout 40L will get you ~100Hz.
JBL2225/6 in a 60L net enclosure tuned to 40Hz with a Q=2 HPF at 40Hz will get you flat to 40Hz, roll off below 40Hz to stop overexcursion from music/SFX/unintended sonics below there.
I used these as part of my PA for years (thanks to djk) and when I brought them inside to try in between speakers, I was so impressed they remained in system until I designed the mains around the Unitys. They stayed on as surrounds until I rebuilt with AE drivers. They will play very loud and clean, and with a steep, say LR4 xover will easily do 800Hz.
Drivers are cheap, available, reliable and JBL make recone kits should you ever need it. I've bought plenty unseen and they've measured fine and been reliable, but there are many dealers such as JamminJersey.com* who'll also sell tested pre-loved units.
* I've bought from them and recommend them. But not affiliated (wrong hemisphere).
JBL2225/6 in a 60L net enclosure tuned to 40Hz with a Q=2 HPF at 40Hz will get you flat to 40Hz, roll off below 40Hz to stop overexcursion from music/SFX/unintended sonics below there.
I used these as part of my PA for years (thanks to djk) and when I brought them inside to try in between speakers, I was so impressed they remained in system until I designed the mains around the Unitys. They stayed on as surrounds until I rebuilt with AE drivers. They will play very loud and clean, and with a steep, say LR4 xover will easily do 800Hz.
Drivers are cheap, available, reliable and JBL make recone kits should you ever need it. I've bought plenty unseen and they've measured fine and been reliable, but there are many dealers such as JamminJersey.com* who'll also sell tested pre-loved units.
* I've bought from them and recommend them. But not affiliated (wrong hemisphere).
I did some quick modeling and its a bit of a tossup. Sealed means more money for dual drivers, and also the need to EQ it on the bottom end a bit more.
I'm trying to keep it fairly simple with little EQ and not a lot of power needed. PEQ boosts means the need for more power....
I'm still leaning toward ported because I think integrating it will be easier and its more cost effective.
I've found a good mix of a simple one band PEQ that keeps the Delta within XMax as long as I keep amplification under 45 watts. Additionally it brings up the bottom end quite a bit. If I model it and the Dayton at 45 watts, the Delta wins, however since the Dayton has more in the tank I was curious. The Delta is ALSO in a smaller box at 1.5 cubic feet v the Daytons 2.0. Putting the Delta in a 2.0 cubic box doesnt really do a lot more for the driver, it goes a bit lower, but I lose some of the better top end above 50hz that I probably want to keep. Plus I like a smaller box.
The Dayton needs 100 watts (2x the Delta) and a 2.0 cubic foot box (.5 more than the Delta) to do the same SPL as the Delta, and then it barely edges it out.
Until we get above 45 watts a channel, the Delta is now the clear winner.
The ONLY issue is that the Delta is 2x the cost of the Dayton. So if I go with the Daytons, it just means I will need to spend more on the amplification portion of things.
The Delta is 2x the cost, but much more efficient (99db v 96) so its likely going to keep up with the tweeter better, and perform on a tube amp better...
A 6 order ported box is likely a bit outside my comfort level, both building and also configuring. Its a bit more EQ and tweaking than I'd like
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I've attached my most recent WinISD files using 2.3V for both drivers, with their EQ.
The Delta has 2 versions, one maximized for 55hz tuning, the other for 50. Both employ a boost below the highpass filter to bring the bottom end up within reasonable margins to the Dayton, and keep the driver from overexcursion.
The Dayton also looks better at 50hz than 40 with little to no EQ needed.
I'm hoping to purchase whatever of these drivers I decide to go with this upcoming week if I can swing it.
Then I will grab the tweeters and the MiniDSP.
45 Watts on these woofers? At home? Do you live in a large barn with holes in the walls?
If you are listening at normal levels in a normal domestic room, you'll be at a couple of watts, max. Don't sweat the power rating for domestic use. If you are building a P.A. system, then worry.
I'm not too worried about the watts, however I like to know what my limits are, and what the driver can take before it maxes out.
Additionally when using boosts, you need some extra wattage on tap to handle the extra power draw.
You sure? I'm showing the Eminence Delta Pro 12A working fine in 1.5 per the model I created...
Did I miss something?
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