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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 31st May 2017, 11:55 PM   #21
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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I did. Keeps giving me errors. I use the old version, much more stable.
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Old 31st May 2017, 11:59 PM   #22
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I did. Keeps giving me errors. I use the old version, much more stable.
Are the drivers themselves still stored as .wdr files? If so just upload those and I will play around with them in my version.
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Old 1st June 2017, 03:42 PM   #23
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Here is the project in the new WINISD. Just whatever was in the database for the driver.
I'll look again later to see if the database agrees with the published specs. Will also add the Dayton 12" pro.
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File Type: zip Delta 12.zip (976 Bytes, 1 views)
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Old 1st June 2017, 07:08 PM   #24
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Files in zip. Should be all you need. Dayton 12 pro driver works best in 1.5ft^2, but is 2-3dB less efficient than the Emmy.
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File Type: zip Horn box Projects.zip (2.7 KB, 3 views)
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Old 1st June 2017, 11:44 PM   #25
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The Eminence still looks to be the better driver with a flatter response. It doesnt start rolling off till it gets below around 45hz.

The Dayton 12 starts rolling off 70hz and really starts getting bad below 60hz.

By the time I hit 40hz its down 6db v the Eminence which is enough to be noticed....

And making the enclosure bigger for that driver doesnt really make its response any deeper.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 12:47 AM   #26
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My room: I do not have 2 corners and it is fairly small. It is 10' deep x 14' wide with the rear wall being 38" tall and overlooking the entrance. So I cant do corner loaded horns, or large boxes either.

Wayne Parham and I exchanged some emails and he suggested some drivers to me. For the tweeter I think I am going to go with the B&C DE250-8 but am open to suggestions.

What I'm struggling with is what driver to use for the low-end/midrange driver, and MOST importantly how to build a crossover. Wayne suggested the Eminence Definimax 4012HO 12” driver, but I want to make sure there isn't anything out there better. He also suggested that whatever I choose be a high-efficiency 10” or 12” driver that is capable of smooth response up to 1500Hz or so

My goal is to build a 2 way speaker with the horn on top with a ported box for the bottom end. That ported box will be using a driver in the 10-12" range in a form fairly compact box that can dig down to around 40hz.
Waynes suggestion was a good one. The 96 db sensitivity will be useful keeping up with the compression driver on top. There are lots more options. I don't know where you've been looking so far. Waynes designs are good and that wouldn't be a crazy path to follow.

Parts-express.com , Loudspeakersplus.com, USSpeaker.com all have good supplies of high efficiency drivers which is what you want. You can look at specs for a long time and not really know the difference between drivers. Doing some reading and finding what other people like helps. I'm sure other people can kick in some sites to check but for high efficiency drivers these are good places to look. Solen.ca, Madisound.com and others around.

The suggestion of a sub makes sense if you listen to music with a lot of low notes. The suggestion of going active means you would need 2-3 amps but make the crossover part of the equation a lot easier and very flexible.

Have fun.

Grant.
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Old 2nd June 2017, 01:44 PM   #27
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The Eminence still looks to be the better driver with a flatter response. It doesnt start rolling off till it gets below around 45hz.
I do not see that in the sims at all. What box size and tuning are you using?
WinISD shows almost identical low end response for these drivers in a 2ft ported box for the Eminence and a 1.5ft ported box for the Dayton. The difference is sensitivity. If the Eminence is playing at 1.5 volts, the Dayton will need to be at 2 volts for the same SPL.

As for the top end response, it's hard to say. The measurements are done under different conditions. It seems that the Dayton doesn't have the top end rise that the Emmy does, but with the different measurements, it's difficult to compare. Either driver should be easy to crossover.

I certainly agree with Pilover that you want high efficiency. The kit with the Delta 12A is a Jeff Bagby design, and Jeff really knows what he's doing. I just threw the Dayton into the mix as a comparison.
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Old 7th June 2017, 01:45 AM   #28
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I do not see that in the sims at all. What box size and tuning are you using?
WinISD shows almost identical low end response for these drivers in a 2ft ported box for the Eminence and a 1.5ft ported box for the Dayton. The difference is sensitivity. If the Eminence is playing at 1.5 volts, the Dayton will need to be at 2 volts for the same SPL.

As for the top end response, it's hard to say. The measurements are done under different conditions. It seems that the Dayton doesn't have the top end rise that the Emmy does, but with the different measurements, it's difficult to compare. Either driver should be easy to crossover.

I certainly agree with Pilover that you want high efficiency. The kit with the Delta 12A is a Jeff Bagby design, and Jeff really knows what he's doing. I just threw the Dayton into the mix as a comparison.
I've attached a zip file containing the project files I've been playing with. Apologies on the late response as I didnt see this till just now. Also which screens are you looking at? I'm looking at the SPL screen rather than the Max SPL screen.
Attached Files
File Type: zip Project Files 6-6-17.zip (3.3 KB, 2 views)

Last edited by EndersShadow; 7th June 2017 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 7th June 2017, 02:50 AM   #29
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OK, Thanks for the files, I see what you are doing now. You're using a low tuning the results in an Extended Bass Shelf response. That can be handy if you have room gain, which you probably will. I don't know the tuning of the Jeff Bagby kit.

If you look at SPL and put all drivers at 2.3V, the Delta 12 is the clear winner. If you put the Dayon in a 1.5 ft box and tune it to ~50Hz, it won't play as low as the others, but will have more low mid. The Definmax in 2ft tuned to 48Hz looks pretty darn good, for SPL, but group delay suffers. It's all about trade-offs.
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Old 7th June 2017, 01:37 PM   #30
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OK, Thanks for the files, I see what you are doing now. You're using a low tuning the results in an Extended Bass Shelf response. That can be handy if you have room gain, which you probably will. I don't know the tuning of the Jeff Bagby kit.

If you look at SPL and put all drivers at 2.3V, the Delta 12 is the clear winner. If you put the Dayon in a 1.5 ft box and tune it to ~50Hz, it won't play as low as the others, but will have more low mid. The Definmax in 2ft tuned to 48Hz looks pretty darn good, for SPL, but group delay suffers. It's all about trade-offs.
I will take a look tonight when I get home. My goal was to try and hit a 40hz tune with whatever driver I was using.

I plan to use this with a sub, but I'd prefer something I dont "have" to have a sub with to get 90% of musical instruments....

50hz may still be "OK" but I need to look at the graphs. If it means a smaller box then I may go with that, however it depends on how large a port I need as well.

I'm hoping to go with a more cost effective driver than the Definimax, but at a 40hz tune its hard to beat but the Dayton comes close in my graphs and thats without room gain which may make the differences moot between the two drivers.

I was kinda going by these graphs to see what I'd be "missing" based on tuning frequency.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by EndersShadow; 7th June 2017 at 01:39 PM.
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