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Old 20th April 2017, 12:06 PM   #1
hbc is offline hbc  United Kingdom
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Default NS1000 clone and or similar performing mid...

Hi,
I have a pair of NS1000m (s) but am aware that they are "old" with unobtainable parts. I love the dynamic midrange.

I perceive that the large magnet, and hard dome are the primary contributors to the efficiency and transparency.

Therefore in the 21st century, are there any drivers which offer similar performance, particularly embodying the qualities that I think the NS1000 mid excel at:

dynamics / transients
transparency
efficiency

My ongoing search for the perfect mid lead me to acquiring some ceramic magnet 5" Accutons, but they are not particularly efficient.

Budget: ideally less than 100 each, but flexible, current ish production.

I have multiple speaker projects on the go at present, mostly waiting for my time and workshop to be finished, (almost is!!!) so this is a slow moving request...

Thank you for humoring me in my quest for the perfect mid.


Current speaker projects for the curios:

Shackman based 2 way. Parts acquired.

Bozak homage, Bandor 2" and Monitor Audio 10" bass (active, current drive) in Goodmans Magnum box! parts aquired.

monster LX5... Linaeum tweeters, Accuton mid Kef B139 bass (4 per side). parts acquired.

Serviceable 3 way monitor / NS1000 clone. still in the thought phase.
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Old 20th April 2017, 01:00 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbc View Post
Hi,
I have a pair of NS1000m (s) but am aware that they are "old" with unobtainable parts. I love the dynamic midrange.

I perceive that the large magnet, and hard dome are the primary contributors to the efficiency and transparency.

Therefore in the 21st century, are there any drivers which offer similar performance, particularly embodying the qualities that I think the NS1000 mid excel at:

dynamics / transients
transparency
efficiency

My ongoing search for the perfect mid lead me to acquiring some ceramic magnet 5" Accutons, but they are not particularly efficient.

Budget: ideally less than 100 each, but flexible, current ish production.
And therein lies your problem. You see, if the Be dome mid that's used in your NS-1000m's were available for sale today, it would probably retail at around 500 at least.

Also, bearing in mind that you seek "dynamics / transients, transparency and efficiency", I might suggest a horn-loaded compression driver. But then again, the few really good ones that are truly transparent don't come cheap.

I use a JBL 2450 modified with a replacement 4" Be diaphragm, on a custom-built radial hypex horn. Total budget for this is 1,500+600+600 = 2700 each.

Alas, top-shelf quality isn't cheap. If I were in your shoes, I'd think long and hard about refurbishing your NS-1000m's instead. New film capacitors, for instance, need not cost the Earth, and would breathe new life into what is already an excellent speaker. It would be very tough to better it, and I think IMPOSSIBLE to do so without spending BIG money.

Marco
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:28 PM   #3
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Hi HBC,

I think your asking for a lot in your budget, especially for a 3 way.

I wouldn't get stuck on using Be drivers either. Modern tweets and midranges are really very good. But if you try to use even mid-range parts, I could see you blowing your budget just on the tweeter + midrange, not including woofer , crossover, cabinetry.

My suggestion really is to buy used and consider Troel's crossover upgrade kit.

Also, have you ever designed a speaker before? A 3way is twice as difficult as a 2 way speaker, if not more. You should look for complete kits, not a new system.

Best,


E
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:30 PM   #4
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Here is the project page for Troels' NS 1000 upgrade kit

Yamaha-NS1000
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Old 20th April 2017, 04:48 PM   #5
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I had the Eton 3-400 in small sealed directly against the Yamaha dome
Both 3" direct radiator. (eton is titanium dome and has a unknown material for the dust cap)
Eton is obsolete but still available at some retailler

Test were fully active with small EQ to make flat from 400-3k

-3 peoples with me to "judge" subjectively

Result, unanimous, the eton slayed the old 3" dome...
More retrieved details, more dynamic and uniform (less EQ needed)

In their more normal use, the eton could do 250-300hz and the Yahama can't. On the other side, the Yam can play higher than the eton (Eton 7Khz breakup produce distortion down to 3.5K and max the eton can do is 3Khz on a steep filter)

Mind you that the max spl of both those small radiator is limited.
I whish I had bought 2 etons for doing a MTM in my main room. Still have them in my 2nd system and they may stay there for very long...

YMMV

Last edited by etalon90; 20th April 2017 at 05:17 PM.
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Old 20th April 2017, 05:08 PM   #6
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etalon,

I'm really not surprised. I mean the Be drivers are legendary for the time, but motors, dome construction and surround technology have all advanced considerably since then.

Taking a look at the tweeter for instance, that top octave response is bettered by a number of inexpensive dome and ring radiators.

Best,

E
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Old 20th April 2017, 06:40 PM   #7
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Given that a pair of beryllium tweeters from the Danes is near a grand I think you might be under budgeting a bit. I use real ribbons instead of the Yamaha tweeters in my 1000s, the kids are unbeatable though.
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Old 20th April 2017, 06:44 PM   #8
hbc is offline hbc  United Kingdom
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Thanks, I am aware of the Troels mods, and slightly circumspect about them. Was a bit disappointed actually when I realised I was not meant to "diy" it and he wanted me to splash for an upgrade kit (more than I paid for the speakers). I am quite keen to keep the ns1000s stock, as a reference.

I am aware that I am asking a lot / the impossible, but these are interesting times, and there are all sorts of drivers out there of varying costs and qualities. I also know designing speakers is a serious black art. I find my self at a place where I can tinker more with better toys than in the past. Still like a bargain though.

So I am sure there are drivers that would be "similar" enough I could, for testing purposes, just drop in to the ns1000. I am running the mid pot at -3dB at the moment.
When I first got the ns1000s I thought the mids were fried, and I swapped one for an old Philips tube reel to reel speaker, that I always liked. Unfortunately for that experiment it was the home brew crossovers that someone had tried to upgrade with, that were the problem, and all the Yamaha drivers were fine!!!

The Visaton DSM 50 FFL, keeps popping up as a possible although only 2" and also Dayton Audio RS52AN-8.
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:09 PM   #9
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My favorite budget tweeters are the Vifa XT25 line. Same as the Scanspeak. They perform really really well, and better than some mid-range Be tweeters. Certainly better than used in some current French uber speakers.

Also I hear very good thing about the Discovery mid range drivers as well.

Best,


E
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Old 20th April 2017, 07:19 PM   #10
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The Visaton DSM 50 FFL, keeps popping up as a possible although only 2" and also Dayton Audio RS52AN-8.
Do not forget the morel 2" mid dome (or 2 1/8 in some model)

You should really try to find some 3-400, they are within your budget and very nice performer.

Gonna have to try a XT25 one of those day, keep hearing good about it
(had the SBA ring dome and sold it quick)
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