I have been looking around midbass horns such as Inlow's, Volvotreter's, and several other around here, and I'm tempted to try one.
The B&C 8PE21 consistently is praised for such an application. Playing with Hornresp I get a nice acoustical power response that suggests a lower xo around 115-135Hz.
Alternatively I tried B&C 12PE32, also praised, and got to nice curves that suggest a lower xo maybe somewhere in the 100-120Hz.
My current setup is an active 4-way, with direct radiators down to 80Hz and a one 12" sealed sub per side below 80Hz. Clearly, if I were to go with midbass horns the single 12" subs aren't going to be able to match the dynamics and will need to be replaced.
But how would I solve below the midbass horns?
Above 80Hz we start to perceive where the sound is coming from.
Long-term, maybe I should be thinking an array of drivers per side? SLOB can go to 135Hz cleanly?
What are good alternatives?
Trying to have a clear path forward.
The B&C 8PE21 consistently is praised for such an application. Playing with Hornresp I get a nice acoustical power response that suggests a lower xo around 115-135Hz.
Alternatively I tried B&C 12PE32, also praised, and got to nice curves that suggest a lower xo maybe somewhere in the 100-120Hz.
My current setup is an active 4-way, with direct radiators down to 80Hz and a one 12" sealed sub per side below 80Hz. Clearly, if I were to go with midbass horns the single 12" subs aren't going to be able to match the dynamics and will need to be replaced.
But how would I solve below the midbass horns?
Above 80Hz we start to perceive where the sound is coming from.
Long-term, maybe I should be thinking an array of drivers per side? SLOB can go to 135Hz cleanly?
What are good alternatives?
Trying to have a clear path forward.
I'm happy you want to try it, that's what one of my first advise 
!
Halas for you and me : it asks area : hard as you say in a living room !
Physic laws are stubborn :
Bass array : the height help to fight room modes (open bass array, vented array ? the first need more cone surface)
several little sub in the room (Gedlee paper)
Folded corner horns bass in corners if you have solid walls to avoid resonances à la Volvotreter, Klipsch...
Ultimatly you may need EQ and FIR filter (delay) to cross your mid-bass horn but you have the Equipment already.
Easier to write than to do !
Keep the good work
!Halas for you and me : it asks area : hard as you say in a living room !
Physic laws are stubborn
:Bass array : the height help to fight room modes (open bass array, vented array ? the first need more cone surface)
several little sub in the room (Gedlee paper)
Folded corner horns bass in corners if you have solid walls to avoid resonances à la Volvotreter, Klipsch...
Ultimatly you may need EQ and FIR filter (delay) to cross your mid-bass horn but you have the Equipment already.
Easier to write than to do !
Keep the good work
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Use Klipsch Corner Horns.
If you upscale them to E.V. Pat IV equivalents with modern 18" or 24" drivers, your L.F. problems will be limited to room rattles only. Your mid-range will then cover the next decade (200/300-2000/3000). How well this region is handled is were all the acoustical challenges are to be found. Have a look at the Klipsch K402 [1] for this application. Above this nothing beats a TAD compression driver on a good H.F. horn. WHG
[1] https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/143514-k402-fact-sheet/&page=1
N.B.: To access the important attachments in this thread, you need to register/long-in first.
If you upscale them to E.V. Pat IV equivalents with modern 18" or 24" drivers, your L.F. problems will be limited to room rattles only. Your mid-range will then cover the next decade (200/300-2000/3000). How well this region is handled is were all the acoustical challenges are to be found. Have a look at the Klipsch K402 [1] for this application. Above this nothing beats a TAD compression driver on a good H.F. horn. WHG
[1] https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/143514-k402-fact-sheet/&page=1
N.B.: To access the important attachments in this thread, you need to register/long-in first.
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Whgeiger,
Could you please advice of a proven high efficienty ready made kit with horns to avoid spending a mad money for such branded flagship spealekers from Avanguarde, JBL, etc...
Something by purchasing off the shelves parts that have been proven to sound good togethers on 3ways ? A lot of classic speakers kit but not so much 3 ways high efficienty with horns... Something for SET amp with a passive XO !
Thanks if any links or advices ! I'm impressed by the huge amount of work made by Lewinski for two years, but I have not his courage...
Could you please advice of a proven high efficienty ready made kit with horns to avoid spending a mad money for such branded flagship spealekers from Avanguarde, JBL, etc...
Something by purchasing off the shelves parts that have been proven to sound good togethers on 3ways ? A lot of classic speakers kit but not so much 3 ways high efficienty with horns... Something for SET amp with a passive XO !
Thanks if any links or advices ! I'm impressed by the huge amount of work made by Lewinski for two years, but I have not his courage...
Glad to read this is working for you, since it will be my initiall fall back alternative. What kind of subs do you run? I believe mine wouldn't be happy at 120Hz xo.
BTW, why did you choose 12PE32? How high do you run them, and what alternative drivers did you consider?
Hey Whgeiger. Thanks for joining.
As of now, too may challenges to correctly implement cornerhorns:
1) Don't have suitable corners in my room. Maybe one of them is. Not the other.
2) I can't commit to a 200Hz xo to a midrange at this point. I might, but too early to tell. Looks more likely the midrange horn will need 400-500Hz.
3) I thought folded horns were fine down low, but closer to 200Hz come into trouble.
Will definitely take a look at the K402 thread. I looked at that horn before and concluded it was too large for WAF...but...
Klipsch Jubilee
For any DIY effort of assembling an all-horn system, use of a DSP front end is strongly recommended. In this setting, driver and horn selection is far less critical and driver substitutions can be easily made as well. Note that design of a passive crossover for this type of system, is at best a sub-optimal solution and well beyond the capabilities and resources of a most DIY builders. The Voicing Issues of time alignment, crossover slope adjustment, and response equalization are far to complex to be effectively dealt with outside the digital domain.
If you are not a willing/able woodworker, then this avenue in most probably going to be a dead end for you. If you can at least build the bass bins, then you should consider building a Klipsch Jubilee system. Here most of the engineering work is already done. You just need to cut the pieces and glue/screw them together. Buy the K-402 horns and then shop for the compression drivers you can afford. Top of the line, are going to be the TAD 4002, from there down are offerings from JBL, BMS, and Community Light and Sound. For the third decade just about any small format compression driver that operates above say 2000 Hz will get the job done. The horns for this unit are easy to find and are inexpensive as well.
Jubilee Bass Bin Drawings
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/54025-jubilee-diy-drawing-project-work-in-progress/&
K-402 Design Regime
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/143514-k402-fact-sheet/
See Roy Delgado's Notes Attached
Regards,
WHG
For any DIY effort of assembling an all-horn system, use of a DSP front end is strongly recommended. In this setting, driver and horn selection is far less critical and driver substitutions can be easily made as well. Note that design of a passive crossover for this type of system, is at best a sub-optimal solution and well beyond the capabilities and resources of a most DIY builders. The Voicing Issues of time alignment, crossover slope adjustment, and response equalization are far to complex to be effectively dealt with outside the digital domain.
If you are not a willing/able woodworker, then this avenue in most probably going to be a dead end for you. If you can at least build the bass bins, then you should consider building a Klipsch Jubilee system. Here most of the engineering work is already done. You just need to cut the pieces and glue/screw them together. Buy the K-402 horns and then shop for the compression drivers you can afford. Top of the line, are going to be the TAD 4002, from there down are offerings from JBL, BMS, and Community Light and Sound. For the third decade just about any small format compression driver that operates above say 2000 Hz will get the job done. The horns for this unit are easy to find and are inexpensive as well.
Jubilee Bass Bin Drawings
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/54025-jubilee-diy-drawing-project-work-in-progress/&
K-402 Design Regime
https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/143514-k402-fact-sheet/
See Roy Delgado's Notes Attached
Regards,
WHG
An excellent point !
OP brings up a great point. The various sections of a 4-way must be matched in their output capabilities and characteristics, otherwise the sound quality will indeed be very odd. Unfortunately, large scale deep bass to match a mid-bass horn will require lots of cone area, and that also means a lot of cubic footage.
At this point I regret ever having you consider a mid range horn. Well, I'm not sure if I did that, but IF I did, I apologize. It's a downward domino effect. For your room size, an all-direct radiator system would have been sufficient.
OP brings up a great point. The various sections of a 4-way must be matched in their output capabilities and characteristics, otherwise the sound quality will indeed be very odd. Unfortunately, large scale deep bass to match a mid-bass horn will require lots of cone area, and that also means a lot of cubic footage.
At this point I regret ever having you consider a mid range horn. Well, I'm not sure if I did that, but IF I did, I apologize. It's a downward domino effect. For your room size, an all-direct radiator system would have been sufficient.
I surmise OP knew it from the beginning.... the waf effect ! there can not be two divas in the same living room and even less if the electrical diva is bigger and play louder !
High efficienty often needs dedicated listening room ! Or Something is compromised if too little (muddy mid-bass, etc...)
Now it can be a bet : spent two years to try to make little high efficienty for th eliving room then maybe the wife will be give up to talk again with the husband ! Brillant !
Surely the Vott A7 is one of the littliest one can make with high efficienty ! or maybe some synergy...not sure looking at Danley stuffs...no so little and looking living room proof !
Well I follow the adventures, I would like to see someone who works not so huge and off the shelf for the parts (do you know the price of a french ebeniste ?).
good reading, known from the beginning than the tweeter choice is the culpritt and will be gave up after eating the pudding (prove of concept).
High efficienty often needs dedicated listening room ! Or Something is compromised if too little (muddy mid-bass, etc...)
Now it can be a bet : spent two years to try to make little high efficienty for th eliving room then maybe the wife will be give up to talk again with the husband ! Brillant !
Surely the Vott A7 is one of the littliest one can make with high efficienty ! or maybe some synergy...not sure looking at Danley stuffs...no so little and looking living room proof !
Well I follow the adventures, I would like to see someone who works not so huge and off the shelf for the parts (do you know the price of a french ebeniste ?).
good reading, known from the beginning than the tweeter choice is the culpritt and will be gave up after eating the pudding (prove of concept).
Klipsch pro and cinema dealers. I'm not sure how much they are these days, from what I saw on forums they are around $4-5k a pair with the Klipsch (BMS) compression drivers.
I don't think they'd work in the OP's application since they are enormous. Here is a picture I took from the owner's system where I heard them. I should have had someone stand next to them, because that picture doesn't really show just how big that midrange horn is. OT: that was also the most true "live" reproduction with no horn coloration I'd ever heard.
IMHO if I were the OP I would just look into a Geddes kit, build 'em and enjoy music. That would be the route I would take if I had a small room.
Thanks.
Those look to be about the same size as my EV CE 9040 horns.
That price is ridiculous. .
Those look to be about the same size as my EV CE 9040 horns.
That price is ridiculous. .
IMHO if I were the OP I would just look into a Geddes kit, build 'em and enjoy music. That would be the route I would take if I had a small room.
OK guys, FOCUS!!!
Hehe. Back to the midbass and what to do below it. Yeah, the K402 looks interesting for a midrange, but just too large.
So midbass horn, good idea or not for my room? 5m x 5m x 2.8m high. Assuming a midrange horn down to about 400-500Hz. And assuming power is not an issue (active system, 400W class D amps for the midbass).
Do you think I should stick with twin 10" midbasses in sealed enclosures, and sealed subs below them?
If I were to go down the midbass horn route, what kind of subs? Scott, a lot of cone area would be 3 or 4 x 15" per side? More? Ballpark guidance would give me enough of an idea.
BTW, don't feel sorry at all. The journey is being great! Luckily I'm not an anxious person
Hehe. Back to the midbass and what to do below it. Yeah, the K402 looks interesting for a midrange, but just too large.
So midbass horn, good idea or not for my room? 5m x 5m x 2.8m high. Assuming a midrange horn down to about 400-500Hz. And assuming power is not an issue (active system, 400W class D amps for the midbass).
Do you think I should stick with twin 10" midbasses in sealed enclosures, and sealed subs below them?
If I were to go down the midbass horn route, what kind of subs? Scott, a lot of cone area would be 3 or 4 x 15" per side? More? Ballpark guidance would give me enough of an idea.
BTW, don't feel sorry at all. The journey is being great! Luckily I'm not an anxious person
Focus on Multiple Servo-Controlled Subs
Similarly, I use a pair of McCaulley 6224 10" drivers to cover the mid-base range. See link for details.
McCauley.com : Products: Accessories > 6224: Overview
For a direct radiator bottom end, recommend servo-controlled drivers.
For DIY, this is the only product offering I am aware of.
Rythmik Audio • Direct Servo subwoofer products
I still have a pair of Velodyne HGS18s, and have had absolutely no urge to replace them. For current Velodyne models see
Digital Drive PLUS Series - Subwoofers
N.B. Your upper Bass units need to go to near 40 Hz if you high pass them at 80 Hz. As room gain is going to help out here as well, an increase in volume displacement should not be required down there.
Regards,
WHG
.... for best non-horn results.OK guys, FOCUS!!!
Hehe. Back to the midbass and what to do below it. Yeah, the K402 looks interesting for a midrange, but just too large.
So midbass horn, good idea or not for my room? 5m x 5m x 2.8m high. Assuming a midrange horn down to about 400-500Hz. And assuming power is not an issue (active system, 400W class D amps for the midbass).
Do you think I should stick with twin 10" midbasses in sealed enclosures, and sealed subs below them?
If I were to go down the midbass horn route, what kind of subs? Scott, a lot of cone area would be 3 or 4 x 15" per side? More? Ballpark guidance would give me enough of an idea.
BTW, don't feel sorry at all. The journey is being great! Luckily I'm not an anxious person
Similarly, I use a pair of McCaulley 6224 10" drivers to cover the mid-base range. See link for details.
McCauley.com : Products: Accessories > 6224: Overview
For a direct radiator bottom end, recommend servo-controlled drivers.
For DIY, this is the only product offering I am aware of.
Rythmik Audio • Direct Servo subwoofer products
I still have a pair of Velodyne HGS18s, and have had absolutely no urge to replace them. For current Velodyne models see
Digital Drive PLUS Series - Subwoofers
N.B. Your upper Bass units need to go to near 40 Hz if you high pass them at 80 Hz. As room gain is going to help out here as well, an increase in volume displacement should not be required down there.
Regards,
WHG
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For whatever reason I was under the impression you used horn mid bass. Mine are Beyma 10G40. I remember looking into your drivers a while back.
And my 12" subs are Rythmiks indeed! I bought the kit and built 45kg sealed cabinets. Servo is nice.
So you are inclined to recommend direct radiators for my mid bass?
It is a 'Hard Sell' as clearly demonstarted here
Yes, because of your espoused space limitations. Over the years I have designed horn systems for myself and others (clients) as well. I no longer have the CNC machines and test equipment I once used for prototyping. So horn building is no longer a recreation for me. But that does not deter the design effort and related contributions made here.
To my ears, horn systems are superior, so long as you do not try to cheat on the size requirements. Roy's introduction of the K-402, an adequately sized horn for its mission, into the Jubilee product was 'gutsy move' because size is hard sell. Wonder where he got that inclination from?
Regards,
WHG
Yes, because of your espoused space limitations. Over the years I have designed horn systems for myself and others (clients) as well. I no longer have the CNC machines and test equipment I once used for prototyping. So horn building is no longer a recreation for me. But that does not deter the design effort and related contributions made here.
To my ears, horn systems are superior, so long as you do not try to cheat on the size requirements. Roy's introduction of the K-402, an adequately sized horn for its mission, into the Jubilee product was 'gutsy move' because size is hard sell. Wonder where he got that inclination from?
Regards,
WHG
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