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Old 15th April 2017, 12:12 PM   #1
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Default Midbass horn: how to solve the range below it?

I have been looking around midbass horns such as Inlow's, Volvotreter's, and several other around here, and I'm tempted to try one.

The B&C 8PE21 consistently is praised for such an application. Playing with Hornresp I get a nice acoustical power response that suggests a lower xo around 115-135Hz.

Alternatively I tried B&C 12PE32, also praised, and got to nice curves that suggest a lower xo maybe somewhere in the 100-120Hz.

My current setup is an active 4-way, with direct radiators down to 80Hz and a one 12" sealed sub per side below 80Hz. Clearly, if I were to go with midbass horns the single 12" subs aren't going to be able to match the dynamics and will need to be replaced.

But how would I solve below the midbass horns?
Above 80Hz we start to perceive where the sound is coming from.
Long-term, maybe I should be thinking an array of drivers per side? SLOB can go to 135Hz cleanly?
What are good alternatives?

Trying to have a clear path forward.
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Old 15th April 2017, 01:36 PM   #2
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I have solved it with 2 subs, each bellow the conical midbass horn with 12pe32.

Subs are sealed, 12", crossed LR8@120Hz.
Midbass horn is with one 12PE32, crossed LR4@90Hz.
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Old 15th April 2017, 05:36 PM   #3
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
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I'm happy you want to try it, that's what one of my first advise !

Halas for you and me : it asks area : hard as you say in a living room !

Physic laws are stubborn :

Bass array : the height help to fight room modes (open bass array, vented array ? the first need more cone surface)
several little sub in the room (Gedlee paper)
Folded corner horns bass in corners if you have solid walls to avoid resonances la Volvotreter, Klipsch...

Ultimatly you may need EQ and FIR filter (delay) to cross your mid-bass horn but you have the Equipment already.

Easier to write than to do !

Keep the good work

Last edited by Eldam; 15th April 2017 at 05:39 PM.
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Old 15th April 2017, 06:52 PM   #4
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Location: Pensacola, Florida
Default Use Klipsch Corner Horns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LewinskiH01 View Post
I have been looking around midbass horns such as Inlow's, Volvotreter's, and several other around here, and I'm tempted to try one.

The B&C 8PE21 consistently is praised for such an application. Playing with Hornresp I get a nice acoustical power response that suggests a lower xo around 115-135Hz.

Alternatively I tried B&C 12PE32, also praised, and got to nice curves that suggest a lower xo maybe somewhere in the 100-120Hz.

My current setup is an active 4-way, with direct radiators down to 80Hz and a one 12" sealed sub per side below 80Hz. Clearly, if I were to go with midbass horns the single 12" subs aren't going to be able to match the dynamics and will need to be replaced.

But how would I solve below the midbass horns?
Above 80Hz we start to perceive where the sound is coming from.
Long-term, maybe I should be thinking an array of drivers per side? SLOB can go to 135Hz cleanly?
What are good alternatives?

Trying to have a clear path forward.
If you upscale them to E.V. Pat IV equivalents with modern 18" or 24" drivers, your L.F. problems will be limited to room rattles only. Your mid-range will then cover the next decade (200/300-2000/3000). How well this region is handled is were all the acoustical challenges are to be found. Have a look at the Klipsch K402 [1] for this application. Above this nothing beats a TAD compression driver on a good H.F. horn. WHG

[1] https://community.klipsch.com/index....-sheet/&page=1
N.B.: To access the important attachments in this thread, you need to register/long-in first.

Last edited by whgeiger; 15th April 2017 at 06:57 PM. Reason: N.B.
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Old 15th April 2017, 07:59 PM   #5
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
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Whgeiger,

Could you please advice of a proven high efficienty ready made kit with horns to avoid spending a mad money for such branded flagship spealekers from Avanguarde, JBL, etc...

Something by purchasing off the shelves parts that have been proven to sound good togethers on 3ways ? A lot of classic speakers kit but not so much 3 ways high efficienty with horns... Something for SET amp with a passive XO !

Thanks if any links or advices ! I'm impressed by the huge amount of work made by Lewinski for two years, but I have not his courage...
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Old 16th April 2017, 12:16 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcgotic View Post
I have solved it with 2 subs, each bellow the conical midbass horn with 12pe32.

Subs are sealed, 12", crossed LR8@120Hz.
Midbass horn is with one 12PE32, crossed LR4@90Hz.
Glad to read this is working for you, since it will be my initiall fall back alternative. What kind of subs do you run? I believe mine wouldn't be happy at 120Hz xo.

BTW, why did you choose 12PE32? How high do you run them, and what alternative drivers did you consider?
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Old 16th April 2017, 12:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whgeiger View Post
If you upscale them to E.V. Pat IV equivalents with modern 18" or 24" drivers, your L.F. problems will be limited to room rattles only. Your mid-range will then cover the next decade (200/300-2000/3000). How well this region is handled is were all the acoustical challenges are to be found. Have a look at the Klipsch K402 [1] for this application. Above this nothing beats a TAD compression driver on a good H.F. horn. WHG

[1] https://community.klipsch.com/index....-sheet/&page=1
N.B.: To access the important attachments in this thread, you need to register/long-in first.
Hey Whgeiger. Thanks for joining.

As of now, too may challenges to correctly implement cornerhorns:
1) Don't have suitable corners in my room. Maybe one of them is. Not the other.
2) I can't commit to a 200Hz xo to a midrange at this point. I might, but too early to tell. Looks more likely the midrange horn will need 400-500Hz.
3) I thought folded horns were fine down low, but closer to 200Hz come into trouble.

Will definitely take a look at the K402 thread. I looked at that horn before and concluded it was too large for WAF...but...
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Old 16th April 2017, 04:43 PM   #8
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Location: Pensacola, Florida
Default Klipsch Jubilee

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldam View Post
Whgeiger,

Could you please advice of a proven high efficienty ready made kit with horns to avoid spending a mad money for such branded flagship spealekers from Avanguarde, JBL, etc...

Something by purchasing off the shelves parts that have been proven to sound good togethers on 3ways ? A lot of classic speakers kit but not so much 3 ways high efficienty with horns... Something for SET amp with a passive XO !

Thanks if any links or advices ! I'm impressed by the huge amount of work made by Lewinski for two years, but I have not his courage...
For any DIY effort of assembling an all-horn system, use of a DSP front end is strongly recommended. In this setting, driver and horn selection is far less critical and driver substitutions can be easily made as well. Note that design of a passive crossover for this type of system, is at best a sub-optimal solution and well beyond the capabilities and resources of a most DIY builders. The Voicing Issues of time alignment, crossover slope adjustment, and response equalization are far to complex to be effectively dealt with outside the digital domain.

If you are not a willing/able woodworker, then this avenue in most probably going to be a dead end for you. If you can at least build the bass bins, then you should consider building a Klipsch Jubilee system. Here most of the engineering work is already done. You just need to cut the pieces and glue/screw them together. Buy the K-402 horns and then shop for the compression drivers you can afford. Top of the line, are going to be the TAD 4002, from there down are offerings from JBL, BMS, and Community Light and Sound. For the third decade just about any small format compression driver that operates above say 2000 Hz will get the job done. The horns for this unit are easy to find and are inexpensive as well.

Jubilee Bass Bin Drawings
https://community.klipsch.com/index....-in-progress/&

K-402 Design Regime
https://community.klipsch.com/index....02-fact-sheet/
See Roy Delgado's Notes Attached

Regards,

WHG
Attached Files
File Type: pdf RD-MT1.pdf (81.9 KB, 24 views)
File Type: pdf RD-MT2.pdf (84.7 KB, 16 views)
File Type: pdf RD-MT3.pdf (28.2 KB, 15 views)
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Old 16th April 2017, 06:00 PM   #9
Eldam is offline Eldam  France
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kind of you Whgeiger, many thanks
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Old 16th April 2017, 06:04 PM   #10
POOH is offline POOH  United States
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how much do the k402 cost and who sells them
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I'm into real life dynamics and tone. Recipes for fully horn loaded horns systems are for me, direct radiator speakers bore me. Why have a fax when you can have vivid 3d technicolor? I love the sound of live instruments. This is my goal with my playback.
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