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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 17th March 2017, 09:19 PM   #21
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Hello, common stereophonics, say two-channels transmissions or recordings, do not work with just two loudspeakers. Headphones do work, if one accepts to not fathom for further information by moving one's head. With loudspeakers, one needs a curved horizontal array of many, say 32 fullrangers each fed by a different sum of left and rite signal. One also needs recording engineers, who use pure intensity-stereo-microphonics. Public research into correct stereophonics stopped in the sixties, which coincidently also was the time, when Acoustic Research went on tour with two-loudspeakers stereophonics. Some mono afficinados survived, and recently Elias, others and me tried to repair stereophonics.
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Old 17th March 2017, 09:32 PM   #22
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If you can't afford Floyd Toole's publications I think there are at least one (or more) lectures on the Web that may be useful.
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Last edited by Jonathan Bright; 17th March 2017 at 09:41 PM. Reason: Putting the 'e' in Toole......
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Old 17th March 2017, 09:42 PM   #23
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Nice one Jonathan
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Old 18th March 2017, 09:21 AM   #24
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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There's a wealth of information right here on this forum. We've had some very cool threads discussing stuff like this. What I used to do is sort the forum on number of views and see which threads surface.

That's how I got to read this one: Linkwitz Orions beaten by Behringer.... what!!?

Lots of interesting parties involved in a thread like that.

Keep in mind, it isn't all about the speakers. Don't forget the room! I chose my speaker design for it's capabilities to work with the room with minimal help needed.

Don't assume, measure . Most preferably at the spot of interest. And learn how we perceive sound to be able to read the measurements.
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Old 18th March 2017, 01:01 PM   #25
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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Originally Posted by Xaborus View Post
Honestly I'd prefer to pay a bit more for the B&C driver over the supplied Denovo DNA-360, but DiySoundGroup states "no substitutions or subtractions". No idea how well subbing out a DE250 would work with the crossover either. Oh well, the Fusion-12 kit will be good enough to see if I like the sound or not to find out if I should learn crossover design and do something similar with the DE250.
The Denovo is a very good clone of a DE250 and actually has a better frequency response and more output lower down, I don't think that the B&C is really an upgrade in this situation.

The Fusion is a pretty good basic design and with a Jeff Bagby crossover you know that some thought has been put into it. The low bass will be missing in action though, this is not really a full range speaker to use without subs.

This kit from SEAS is interesting as it is using a coaxial and an L26 woofer. I know from my LX521's that they can go low.

SEAS KingRO4Y Mk II

Anything from Troels Gravesen would be worth building, plenty of information and measurements to help decide.

Also Bill Waslo's Small Syn's are very impressive and come with all the information you could need to build them including the crossover. If I wasn't in the middle of building Line Arrays and hadn't got XT1464 waveguides waiting for a Synergy style speaker I would probably build Bill's.

Last edited by fluid; 18th March 2017 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 18th March 2017, 02:08 PM   #26
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It is a shame, how you use the words soundstage and imaging for weaseling thru commerce. Two-loudspeaker stereos cannot reproduce a soundstage and put forth a sonic image with voices appearing in any point within a at least one-dimensional space. All they can do is put out dialog stereo AKA either-l-or-r stereo, with no voice appearing in both channels simultaniously. Thanks
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Old 18th March 2017, 02:42 PM   #27
Ron E is offline Ron E  United States
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soundstage and imaging have as much to do with room acoustics as they do with speaker type. Making very directive speakers or having a lot of absorption near them can reduce room interactions and can even make your speakers sound a bit "headphony". Usually this is not good for imaging.

You can also splash sound all over the place ala Bose 901 or many bipolar or multidirectional speakers (Mirage, deftech, etc..) or many speakers with rear facing tweeters... and try to use room reflections to make it sound spacious.

Big dipoles are another way of splashing sound all over - some of the best (Soundlab, Quad) and worst (Martin Logan) systems I have ever heard require careful room treatment to sound their best. Then they only show their potential with "trick" recordings - I have yet to find a "trick" recording with music that I really like... None of my favorites have ever provided a "you are there" quality with any system....well maybe the drum solo on Rush's By-tor or ELP's Sheriff...when turned up to eleven on crappy, but efficient party speakers
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:59 AM   #28
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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Originally Posted by Grasso789 View Post
It is a shame, how you use the words soundstage and imaging for weaseling thru commerce.
What on earth does that mean?

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Two-loudspeaker stereos cannot reproduce a soundstage and put forth a sonic image with voices appearing in any point within a at least one-dimensional space. All they can do is put out dialog stereo AKA either-l-or-r stereo, with no voice appearing in both channels simultaniously. Thanks
Maybe not but two speaker "stereo" sound is not going anywhere anytime soon and I don't see the market for 32 speaker hemispherical arrays in most peoples living rooms no matter how good they could be made to sound. I suspect those would be for a man cave only.

They could line up next to the Betamax recorder or any superior format that was sent into obscurity by a more popular competitor
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Old 19th March 2017, 02:02 AM   #29
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I think there is an agenda
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Old 19th March 2017, 02:10 AM   #30
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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Originally Posted by Ron E View Post
soundstage and imaging have as much to do with room acoustics as they do with speaker type. Making very directive speakers or having a lot of absorption near them can reduce room interactions and can even make your speakers sound a bit "headphony". Usually this is not good for imaging.
Some of this comes down to personal preferences and your own experience of sound events that inform you of what you expect a recording to sound like.

Some people like the drier presentation of narrower directivity, other's hate it so I think you have to try for yourself to see what you like.

The room you have and desire or opportunity for treatment has a big part too. As Ron says some speakers demand treatment to sound good other types you can get away with much less.

Linkwitz sets out his requirements (halfway down the page) for much of this, if you can get all of this then I think you would be in a good position to get the best out of whichever speakers you chose.

The-Magic-in-2-Channel-Sound

Most conventional loudspeakers sound good if placed far enough from room boundaries, not so easy in practice though.
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