Hello good people. I've been aware that a speaker upgrade will be necessary at some point, and I believe that time is approaching. The basic needs in my life are food, water and sound.
I have a pair of Celestion F20 and they're about 12 years old now. They seem to lack a little definition, especially in the midrange. My dream speakers are B&W 683 S2. But I can't ever see myself affording them. The only other speakers I really like are Monitor Audio Bronze 5, which are a good deal cheaper, but probably a 3 year saving effort away. I've had my eye on them for a while.
I love woodwork, and I've built a few speakers which sounded great, so DIY is a very attractive solution (I want to build speakers). The problem is that if I spend the money on speakers I build, and they suck, I've wasted money I can't afford to waste.
I have a very limited selection of Visaton speakers available, so I've put together an initial plan in favour of the DIY option. It will be a 2 way tower with 3 chambers. A 50L ported with a W170S, a 15L ported with a W100S, and a tweeter chamber with an SC10N in. All 8 ohm. I'm thinking of putting the two bass/mids in parallel, and using a 4th order Butterworth 2-way crossover (3.2kHz).
My room is large at 8.5m x 5m, so I want something with authority. I'm worried the Visaton option won't give me the quality or presence. They would probably only be 150W 4 ohm with a sensitivity of 88dB. Are these Visaton speakers comparably good? Will they have enough for authoritative presence? Will paying double for the MAs be a better option? Do the MAs have the required oomph? Any light shed on this would really be very much appreciated!
I have a pair of Celestion F20 and they're about 12 years old now. They seem to lack a little definition, especially in the midrange. My dream speakers are B&W 683 S2. But I can't ever see myself affording them. The only other speakers I really like are Monitor Audio Bronze 5, which are a good deal cheaper, but probably a 3 year saving effort away. I've had my eye on them for a while.
I love woodwork, and I've built a few speakers which sounded great, so DIY is a very attractive solution (I want to build speakers). The problem is that if I spend the money on speakers I build, and they suck, I've wasted money I can't afford to waste.
I have a very limited selection of Visaton speakers available, so I've put together an initial plan in favour of the DIY option. It will be a 2 way tower with 3 chambers. A 50L ported with a W170S, a 15L ported with a W100S, and a tweeter chamber with an SC10N in. All 8 ohm. I'm thinking of putting the two bass/mids in parallel, and using a 4th order Butterworth 2-way crossover (3.2kHz).
My room is large at 8.5m x 5m, so I want something with authority. I'm worried the Visaton option won't give me the quality or presence. They would probably only be 150W 4 ohm with a sensitivity of 88dB. Are these Visaton speakers comparably good? Will they have enough for authoritative presence? Will paying double for the MAs be a better option? Do the MAs have the required oomph? Any light shed on this would really be very much appreciated!
Hello, usually if there is something wrong with speakers then it's the crossover filter, very rarely the drivers are to blame. Unfortunately the time it takes to learn how to modify speakers to sound right is considerable, depending.
I would suggest you build yourself a moderately priced speaker kit like Visaton Clou. I have worked with Visaton WS17E-4 and Monacor DT-99 to build a sealed bookshelf box with very good results on such a tight budget but the crossover filter was designed with utmost care using measurement equipment and constant listening.
If you're willing to search the vastness of this forum threads and internet too, you might be able to learn how to modify Celestions for better sonics, which may be somewhat of a long shot, but you never know.
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I'd suspect the tower Celestion F20 with a 5" bass are a bit limited in a big room.
I have very little woodworking ability, but I know a good idea when I see one. The John DeVore Gibbon 88 is apparently a delightful example of the 6" bass idea:
However, most of us don't have the bucks or Rands to buy one. So we diy.
Visaton drivers are cheapish metal chassis, doubtless made in China, but their huge strength is how easy they are to design with Free Visaton Boxsim software.
Let's see what we can do with:
W 170 S - 8 Ohm
SC 10 N - 8 Ohm
First you need a good idea, and what better than the BBC monitor designs for the filter:
Rogers Loudspeakers › LS5/9
A quick insertion of the W170S values (5.9R and 1.2mH) at this website gave me some bafflestep and impedance equalisation:
mh-audio.nl - Home
There we are, on a 32L 22cm baffle. Glorious impedance which any amplifier will love, and everything else works too. Who knows if this sounds any good till you build it? But definitely a poor man's DeVore Gibbon 88.
I have very little woodworking ability, but I know a good idea when I see one. The John DeVore Gibbon 88 is apparently a delightful example of the 6" bass idea:
However, most of us don't have the bucks or Rands to buy one. So we diy.
Visaton drivers are cheapish metal chassis, doubtless made in China, but their huge strength is how easy they are to design with Free Visaton Boxsim software.
Let's see what we can do with:
W 170 S - 8 Ohm
SC 10 N - 8 Ohm
First you need a good idea, and what better than the BBC monitor designs for the filter:
Rogers Loudspeakers › LS5/9
A quick insertion of the W170S values (5.9R and 1.2mH) at this website gave me some bafflestep and impedance equalisation:
mh-audio.nl - Home
There we are, on a 32L 22cm baffle. Glorious impedance which any amplifier will love, and everything else works too. Who knows if this sounds any good till you build it? But definitely a poor man's DeVore Gibbon 88.
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Thank you!
Lojzek, I'm not keen on the Clou. I'm especially not keen on 82 dB sensitivity. I can definitely push 250 - 300 W, but those speakers can only deal with 120 W. Would that really be an upgrade over my Celestions?
However, system7, I really like this idea of using the W170S in this configuration. But yet again, power handling is very low with not much sensitivity. It would seem that using the W170S like this will have worse sensitivity than the Clou. I like the idea because I could probably make it bigger like this:
The main question still stands: Will building a DIY speaker like this sound better / comparable to Monitor Audio's lovely Bronze 5? And then will they be loud enough in my big room?
I see that the place I can get the speakers from is a Visaton agent, and they say I can order. I'm going to find out prices on the Solitude and the Experience V 20. They both look great.
Otherwise, I think system7 has posted a great starting point.
Lojzek, I'm not keen on the Clou. I'm especially not keen on 82 dB sensitivity. I can definitely push 250 - 300 W, but those speakers can only deal with 120 W. Would that really be an upgrade over my Celestions?
However, system7, I really like this idea of using the W170S in this configuration. But yet again, power handling is very low with not much sensitivity. It would seem that using the W170S like this will have worse sensitivity than the Clou. I like the idea because I could probably make it bigger like this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The main question still stands: Will building a DIY speaker like this sound better / comparable to Monitor Audio's lovely Bronze 5? And then will they be loud enough in my big room?
I see that the place I can get the speakers from is a Visaton agent, and they say I can order. I'm going to find out prices on the Solitude and the Experience V 20. They both look great.
Otherwise, I think system7 has posted a great starting point.
So I've asked about the kits. I like the Solitude. The Experience V 20 is apparently amazing, but it's quite expensive. I'll soon know about the Solitude.
An option I'm willing to do is to build two full-range driver based speakers - B 200, and then the place I get the speakers sell a no-name 10" woofer, which I measured and made a subwoofer of. It's a great driver, but has high distortion in the higher frequencies, so I could simply use those to fill the bass.
Based on that, I've got a pair of high quality old full range speakers. I can't remember exactly what they are, but they were highly regarded a number of years ago. I just need to revamp them, and then I think I can use those as a pair of full-range speakers, and I'll add in a couple of woofers - one for each speaker as part of the same cabinet.
An option I'm willing to do is to build two full-range driver based speakers - B 200, and then the place I get the speakers sell a no-name 10" woofer, which I measured and made a subwoofer of. It's a great driver, but has high distortion in the higher frequencies, so I could simply use those to fill the bass.
Based on that, I've got a pair of high quality old full range speakers. I can't remember exactly what they are, but they were highly regarded a number of years ago. I just need to revamp them, and then I think I can use those as a pair of full-range speakers, and I'll add in a couple of woofers - one for each speaker as part of the same cabinet.
So, you're into high SPL, high wattage devices, maybe you could name exactly what kind of drivers you have at your disposal and perhaps Steve can muster an equivalently nice sounding setup in Boxsim.Sorry, I don't deal with commercial products on a frequent basis, so I can neither comment on MA Bronze 5, nor compare it to a diy box.
Poeple unsure of sound quality outcome often keep a good sounding commercial product and build stuff on a side just for fun so it's no problem if they mess it up.
I will stress out again, measurements and modifications based on these are the key to all issues.
Good luck.
Poeple unsure of sound quality outcome often keep a good sounding commercial product and build stuff on a side just for fun so it's no problem if they mess it up.
I will stress out again, measurements and modifications based on these are the key to all issues.
Good luck.
Thank you Lojzek.
I don't necessarily want high SPL, but I do want the capability. The only need for wattage is if the speakers are low sensitivity.
I've heard back from the speaker guys, and only the B 200 is available. But at quite a cost!
So I think after looking at everything, my option would be to use two W 130 S's (4 ohms), each in a 20L ported chamber, and one SC 10 N, like this:
That will give me 100 W and > 88 dB sensitivity (in other words, enough).
Will this sound big?
I don't necessarily want high SPL, but I do want the capability. The only need for wattage is if the speakers are low sensitivity.
I've heard back from the speaker guys, and only the B 200 is available. But at quite a cost!
So I think after looking at everything, my option would be to use two W 130 S's (4 ohms), each in a 20L ported chamber, and one SC 10 N, like this:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
That will give me 100 W and > 88 dB sensitivity (in other words, enough).
Will this sound big?
What I'm going to do for now is build a pair of speakers with my Philips 9710M pair I do have (and follow the advice in the link). I think they'll sound nice. I need to fix them up a little. The only problem is volume. They're only 10 W each. And I believe they're only 91 dB in a sealed box. I want to compare them to my Celestions.
Mrcloc, yes I think it has the potential to sound big and with plenty of bass until it gets out of steam which can be simulated. I have worked with this unit (W130S) too and crossed it to a Visaton G20 which gave superbly detailed sound and I atribute it to this silk dome tweeter that reminds me of the Dynaudio D21/2. I'll try to do some simulations in Boxsim but not right now for I'm in the middle of doing something else. The attached photos is something Steve might like to see used more often and I have taken these out of a poor sounding Aiwa mini stereo. I'm working on a chip amp powered by a single ended 12Vdc these days and later I'll try to build small enclosures for the speakers. The basic idea is to use whatever I can find for free on a junkyard and stuff laying around on shelves. So far, so good.
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That won't work at all. Puny tweeter just not up to it.
https://boxsim-db.de/kategorie/systeme/drei-wege/
These designs can be imported straight into the projekte folder and adjusted.
Most of them aren't actually that impressive, but a good start.
There's no replacement for displacement with bass. But the SEAS Bragi MTM is a good one for an authoritative sound. And series wiring two 4 ohm basses is also a good one. Or you can add a sideways firing bass or two as in the Devore Fidelity Gibbon X.
Your impedance correction can't be right for two series wired W130S-4 basses. You need to check that. I get 8.75R/15uF.
mh-audio.nl - Home
W 130 S - 4 Ohm
You have to double the DC Resistance (3.5R) and Inductance (0.6mH) with two in series. Bafflestep is a moveable feast. 4dB is usually about right. But if you want more bass, you definitely need bigger drivers.
https://boxsim-db.de/kategorie/systeme/drei-wege/
These designs can be imported straight into the projekte folder and adjusted.
Most of them aren't actually that impressive, but a good start.
There's no replacement for displacement with bass. But the SEAS Bragi MTM is a good one for an authoritative sound. And series wiring two 4 ohm basses is also a good one. Or you can add a sideways firing bass or two as in the Devore Fidelity Gibbon X.
Your impedance correction can't be right for two series wired W130S-4 basses. You need to check that. I get 8.75R/15uF.
mh-audio.nl - Home
W 130 S - 4 Ohm
You have to double the DC Resistance (3.5R) and Inductance (0.6mH) with two in series. Bafflestep is a moveable feast. 4dB is usually about right. But if you want more bass, you definitely need bigger drivers.
I wasn't suggesting SEAS drivers at all. But any project should be based on a good idea that works. And MTM is a good idea.
The W130S is quite a difficult driver, IMO. You'll probably find the W170S-4 easier.
These tweeters are worth looking at:
G 20 SC - 8 Ohm
SC 10 N - 8 Ohm
DT 94
TBH, tweeters are fairly interchangeable. The SC10N and DT 94 (which I have used) are louder 91dB types, the G20SC is a 88dB type which Lojzek has said nice things about.
The W130S is quite a difficult driver, IMO. You'll probably find the W170S-4 easier.
These tweeters are worth looking at:
G 20 SC - 8 Ohm
SC 10 N - 8 Ohm
DT 94
TBH, tweeters are fairly interchangeable. The SC10N and DT 94 (which I have used) are louder 91dB types, the G20SC is a 88dB type which Lojzek has said nice things about.
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Lojzek's splendid dumpster diving seems to have rustled up a fun tweeter there:
Here's some Visaton experiments I did a while back. Both pretty good.
8" W200S-8, DT 94 and TW 70 cone tweeter. Actually the port was a bit small, so I fitted an old Sony 8" bass I had lying about.
Here's some Visaton experiments I did a while back. Both pretty good.
8" W200S-8, DT 94 and TW 70 cone tweeter. Actually the port was a bit small, so I fitted an old Sony 8" bass I had lying about.
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So what so you think would be better, 2xW170S, or 1xW200S? And 2xW200S? Will that do well? Perhaps 1xW200S and 1xW170S, or even a W100S? I'm going to play around with these in boxsim tonight, but I have absolutely no experience with these drivers, or really with high-end multi-way speakers. I'm trying to get something that will blow my Celestions away, and they're pretty good.
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