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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Visaton 2 way tower or Monitor Audio Bronze 5
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Old 18th March 2017, 09:12 AM   #51
Lojzek is online now Lojzek  Croatia
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Originally Posted by Mrcloc View Post
Lojzek, thanks. I like it, but the only thing is the lack of midrange. I think 2 W100S's will be needed.
No problem, you are welcome to do your own modelling but in regard to midrange SPL there is no need to introduce a second midrange and then pad it down, and doing it in a D'Appolito fashion causes further off-axis cancelations. The small response hole made in crossover region was on purpose to smooth out the horizontal off-axis curves but it's not definite what one might prefer better. That's how professional designers do things.

I have a buddy who owns Experience V20 and according to him this kit sounds rather poor considering his initial expectations and when you observe the project in Boxsim the graphs on and off-axis look pretty odd. No doubt, the XO filter needs improving.

Cheers!
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Old 19th March 2017, 04:10 AM   #52
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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My reasoning was doubling up W100S drivers in series was going to improve power handling, Lojzek. Thus less distortion. The midrange is the main event IMO. And didn't someone suggest that lower quality midranges can work well a while back. Just coils and cones and magnets in the end.

Click the image to open in full size.

The physics says that each driver is only outputting a 1/4 of the SPL for the same overall level. Thus lower distortion. I also quite like Roy Allison's idea of putting the (single) bass near the floor below the bafflestep cutoff of 500Hz on a 22 cm baffle. You then effectively double up the bass response again with the floor gain. It's clever.

If it was me, with all the supply issues in SA, and availability of coils is the biggest one it seems. I'd be looking into availability of enamelled copper wire and wind them round a bobbin to correct inductance value.

This is just a hobby, in the end. To build a speaker, I have to be excited about the idea being tested. I liked everything about this DeVore Gibbon 88 clone idea:

Click the image to open in full size.

Add the BBC impedance and passive RL bafflestep, and it all falls into place. Knowing Boxsim a bit, it overdoes the bass response when designed flat, but this 22cm wide, 32L design is a peach IMO. The W170S is actually more of a closed box driver, IMO, so a sock in the port might be good too. Joachim Gerhard used to talk vaguely about his diffraction module which adjusted for the cabinet. Well, if that isn't the BBC RL bafflestep circuit, I'll eat my hat. And John DeVore and likes easy to drive flat impedance. Ah, the secrets of high-end audio...

My last thought on this, is that I want to try some air-coils rather than ferrites in the bass filter. The measurably worst components in a crossover. But as Sreten wisely pointed out, don't expect miracles. After all, the speaker is one big ferrite coil too.
Attached Images
File Type: png Gibbon 88 clone circuit 2.PNG (9.4 KB, 154 views)
File Type: png Gibbon 88 clone FR 2.PNG (21.8 KB, 229 views)
File Type: png Gibbon 88 clone phase 2.PNG (24.3 KB, 230 views)
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:21 PM   #53
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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Lojzek, yes, it's the power handling I was after with two mids. But all merit to the design.

Steve, are you hinting I should build that gibbon clone to share results? I must say, I'm very much in favour of it! I have been since you posted it at first. The only thing is the low power handling ability. I'm pretty sure those speakers won't compete with my F20s.

As for the enclosure, is it ported? Would you put the tweeter in it's own chamber? If ported, would you tune it to 39Hz?
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Old 20th March 2017, 10:41 AM   #54
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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Steve, you made a big effort to help me in the past. It was a few months ago, and it gave me the extra confidence that I can maybe build my next speakers. My friend was, and still is extremely happy with what I built for him. Skytec based bookshelfs

Those speakers sounded unexpectedly good. I did nothing to the crossovers - I never got the time. Baby also arrived early. Things were crazy at the time.

Anyway, I can get hold of a similar driver in 6.5". Would that be a good candidate in the Gibbon clone? I can get the 902.193 or the 902.423. TS linked here.

The 193 looks like a bad idea. The 423 looks like it can't really give enough bass. I could get a 902.214, but I'll need a midrange with it. In a huge ported box, it should reach 24 Hz or so? It'll probably work better in a sealed 65 litre. I'm not sure.
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Old 20th March 2017, 01:04 PM   #55
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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Ok, so I also like sealed cabinets. There's something to be said about how a port can just warm up that bass, but if you can get it in a sealed thing, there's something nice about it.

Peach of a Gibbon 88 clone, I'll just take it one step further. Make it 160 cm high, 22 cm wide and 45 cm deep. I like that height; it's nice and eye-level when I'm sitting. Put the W170S and SC10N where they would normally be at the top of the box, and then add another W170S symmetrically below the tweeter. Both low's 4 ohm, tweak the crossover a little, and this 100 L sealed box should sound quite nice, I would guess.

The phase for elevation angles is a bit bad, but I suspect this won't be a problem in my room. I sit about 4 meters from the speakers.
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File Type: png GibbonClone_and_1_FR.png (24.1 KB, 22 views)
File Type: png GibbonClone_and_1_XO.png (8.3 KB, 27 views)
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Old 20th March 2017, 03:21 PM   #56
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I'd expect a 6" bass to go louder than a 5" actually.
W 170 S - 8 Ohm

It doesn't like reflex at all, but then it's Qts 0.52:
mh-audio.nl - Vented System

3dB lump at the bottom end with reflex. Ideally you'd want a golden ratio (0.618:1:1.618) cabinet to avoid standing waves. Or 1:1.414:2 is another reasonable one. Something to think about there. I don't know the easy answer to that with a tower closed box. Maybe a lot of heavy stuffing in the box. Maybe divide the cabinet internally to 30L because overly big boxes worsen power handling. DeVore uses a double chamber reflex, you see.

FWIW, I don't like that 10R resistor on the bafflestep.
mh-audio.nl - Home
Seems to worsen the impedance. It's too much. 3.5R and 1mH seemed about right for 4dB.

I know how to model things like the SC5 these days. I think it's just the optimiser that needs more data with those old driver files. Boxsim has obviously been updated over the years and is not 100% compatible with old files. But the FR and phase works. I seemed to get on OK with projects from the databank anyway. https://boxsim-db.de/kategorie/systeme/drei-wege/

Those skytronic drivers look a possibility too, but a whole new ball game.
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Last edited by system7; 20th March 2017 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 20th March 2017, 06:29 PM   #57
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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Hi. Thanks! I'll keep in mind that golden ratio - that's a cool thing. I actually changed the two 10 ohm resistors to 4.7 just after posting. I preferred what it did for the impedance. I was thinking of that tall box and using many deflectors in it - jutting pieces of bracing here and there. Or I could make two 50 L chambers.

When I tweak a crossover, I look at peaks and dips in FR and impedance, and then I can identify where it's coming from, and then I play around with the value of the suspected component. I imagine that one can get quite obsessive and tweak each component after building.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:50 PM   #58
Lojzek is online now Lojzek  Croatia
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Originally Posted by Mrcloc View Post
Lojzek, yes, it's the power handling I was after with two mids. But all merit to the design.
Oh, I see! Now we are in the middle of something new, namely monkey business.

@ Steve: The TS parameters of W170S-8 are considerably worse than specified by Visaton or at least it was so 15 years ago when I did a project with these. I'll try to dig up impedance measurement if there still is one on my ancient PII-300 Mhz machine, overclocked to 450Mhz for the last 20 years and still working.
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Old 21st March 2017, 01:42 PM   #59
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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AFAIK, the W170S has changed quite a lot over the years.

I spent some time looking up the DeVore Gibbon 88 last night, since we may be interested in something like it. Looks like a SEAS 6" driver not far removed from this: H1215-08 CA18RNX. Actually a straightforward reflex if I can trust my eyes.

I also found out quite a lot about the huge Orangutan 96 speakers that fascinate a lot of people here:
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2016/...eaker-designs/

How hard are they to clone? Actually, not easy, and certainly not cheap. I know a SEAS Exotic motor when I see one.
WOOFERS

Seems like John spends years on his designs:
https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2017/...n-loudspeaker/
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Old 22nd March 2017, 08:58 AM   #60
Mrcloc is offline Mrcloc  South Africa
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Hi Steve. I need to build something which will be able to handle the potential of my amplifier(s) - 150 W and 180 W (8 ohms). My room is big, and I often need loud sound, but I also want the room filled with very low volume. 100 W speakers should be happy on these amplifiers.

I really like that Gibbon clone you posted. So what I think I'm going to do is build something using the W170S and SC10N, but I'll make it something much smaller for a secondary system. I need something in my dining room, where I spend most of my evenings cooking, building or chilling by the fire (fire is in the family room, which is basically part of the dining room). At the moment I put my main system loud and can barely hear it from the kitchen. I don't want it too loud, else it will bother my mom-in-law who lives in a flat near the living room.

So I'm going to see if I can modify the Gibbon 88 clone to a bookshelf size. I'll compare them to my Celestions, and just judge the overall sound, and if I like what I hear, I'll build the bigger speakers as a main system.

You've helped me massively, and if I can help you with anything (amplifiers are my strong point), let me know.
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