My experience with minidsp/4-way for 3 years has given an impression that surprisingly small differencies can alter the sound very much. I am talking about ½octave 1dB, and nothing else changes. Also my own preference changes by time.
The nicest thing with dsp is that one can make these changes without cost, easily and switch between several presets.
The nicest thing with dsp is that one can make these changes without cost, easily and switch between several presets.
Hi bcodemz,
I think you are reaching the wrong conclusions based on your observations, and you really have just one observation: people covering their ears during your response sweep. Maybe it was too loud, maybe it was distorting. Just because they covered their ears does not mean they do not like treble. Did you ask them why they covered their ears? (I don't believe I got a chance to listen to your speakers, nor was I there for the response sweep)
I was at this years Burning Amp too. Did you get a chance to hear SL's speakers, or Charlie's speakers, or the ESS speakers in Nelson's room? They all had good sound and balanced levels throughout the spectrum.
As people get older, some (though not all) are likely to loose hearing sensitivity in the HF. This means they can't hear it, so, it is likely they are insensitive to how loud it is. Covering their ears would mean they CAN hear it.
Regarding flat response, or the ideal response, if you study Toole and others carefully, the general idea is to have a flat on-axis response, and a falling power response. This gives the best balance. The falling power response can be achieved via a combination of increasing directivity of the drivers and room absorption.
Sorry for the late response. Been really busy with Thanksgiving and everything.
To address the comments on hearing, this is the beginning of a sensitive topic I will be exploring in a dedicated thread in order not to derail this thread. I expect it will irk a lot of people, but it is a strongly needed reflection and discussion for the future of the audio hobby.
I want to take a little time here and describe my method in gathering opinions on my speaker. My bar is far higher than you would ever think.
When I ask for people on their opinion on my speaker, I've learned to stop listening to what they say. The reason is most people will not criticize, it is just common courtesy. Therefore, now I mainly read their expressions. I won't claim to be an expert facial expression reader. However, I do know that when people hear something extraordinarily good, there is an unmistakeable exaggerated expression on their face. Some people it is a s*** eating grin. Some people uncontrollably laugh. Some people have a "oh ****" expression. I fall in the uncontrollably laugh category. So, for something of this caliber, I obviously aim to get that kind of a response when I give a demo to someone. To me, this is the highest and most genuine level of praise someone can give.
However, this is not an easy expression to get from someone. It has to sound vastly better than anything else they've ever heard to get that kind of expression.
I've given hundreds of demos over the years for various friends and acquaintances, starting from my commercial system to my first DIY speakers to this current speaker. Before DIY I've never gotten that expression for speakers. I've only gotten this kind of an amazed expression from subwoofers when I do movie demos, and it is the guest's first time experiencing true tactile deep bass that shake the house.
Over the years I did speaker demos of my DIY speakers, and while it impressed audiophiles, I mostly got lukewarm reactions from non audiophiles. This speaker did quite a bit better in impressing all people, but it was mostly the kind of expression that you see if you hear a really good speaker. It wasn't until the multiple large improvements I achieved recently that I started seeing the shocked and amazed reactions that signify "this is outrageously good" on a consistent basis. I definitely got a few of these expressions myself as I was working on this.
This has finally achieved what I thought couldn't be done: a speaker that can greatly impress an audiophile AND a non audiophile at the same time. This speaker has gotten the uncontrollable exaggerated facial expression from numerous audiophiles, non audiophiles, and even a professional sound engineer! While I did start the demo with a few of my own demo tracks, I always turn it around and have people listen to their own music. On my previous DIY speakers, I often see young people, with their super short attention span, going on their phone after a few minutes of the demo. This signifies strongly that they're unimpressed, otherwise they wouldn't go on their phone. While they still think it is good, it is not good enough to keep their attention. If they say it is good, but refuse the opportunity to try songs of their own, that means they don't actually like it that much. Now, no one refuses the chance to try their own songs, and usually leads to an extended listening session where they go over song after song after song that they want to re-experience. I never expected I could see that kind of focused attention from non audiophile young people, and it warms my heart to see them so impressed and happy to hear music like they've never heard before.
TL : DR - My definition of a good speaker is not someone telling me it sounds great, it is from seeing an uncontrollable exaggerated facial expression that a person can only have when they hear something so good it is vastly better than anything they've ever experienced, and they crave more. To me, this is the highest and most genuine level of praise someone can give.
To address the comments on hearing, this is the beginning of a sensitive topic I will be exploring in a dedicated thread in order not to derail this thread. I expect it will irk a lot of people, but it is a strongly needed reflection and discussion for the future of the audio hobby.
I want to take a little time here and describe my method in gathering opinions on my speaker. My bar is far higher than you would ever think.
When I ask for people on their opinion on my speaker, I've learned to stop listening to what they say. The reason is most people will not criticize, it is just common courtesy. Therefore, now I mainly read their expressions. I won't claim to be an expert facial expression reader. However, I do know that when people hear something extraordinarily good, there is an unmistakeable exaggerated expression on their face. Some people it is a s*** eating grin. Some people uncontrollably laugh. Some people have a "oh ****" expression. I fall in the uncontrollably laugh category. So, for something of this caliber, I obviously aim to get that kind of a response when I give a demo to someone. To me, this is the highest and most genuine level of praise someone can give.
However, this is not an easy expression to get from someone. It has to sound vastly better than anything else they've ever heard to get that kind of expression.
I've given hundreds of demos over the years for various friends and acquaintances, starting from my commercial system to my first DIY speakers to this current speaker. Before DIY I've never gotten that expression for speakers. I've only gotten this kind of an amazed expression from subwoofers when I do movie demos, and it is the guest's first time experiencing true tactile deep bass that shake the house.
Over the years I did speaker demos of my DIY speakers, and while it impressed audiophiles, I mostly got lukewarm reactions from non audiophiles. This speaker did quite a bit better in impressing all people, but it was mostly the kind of expression that you see if you hear a really good speaker. It wasn't until the multiple large improvements I achieved recently that I started seeing the shocked and amazed reactions that signify "this is outrageously good" on a consistent basis. I definitely got a few of these expressions myself as I was working on this.
This has finally achieved what I thought couldn't be done: a speaker that can greatly impress an audiophile AND a non audiophile at the same time. This speaker has gotten the uncontrollable exaggerated facial expression from numerous audiophiles, non audiophiles, and even a professional sound engineer! While I did start the demo with a few of my own demo tracks, I always turn it around and have people listen to their own music. On my previous DIY speakers, I often see young people, with their super short attention span, going on their phone after a few minutes of the demo. This signifies strongly that they're unimpressed, otherwise they wouldn't go on their phone. While they still think it is good, it is not good enough to keep their attention. If they say it is good, but refuse the opportunity to try songs of their own, that means they don't actually like it that much. Now, no one refuses the chance to try their own songs, and usually leads to an extended listening session where they go over song after song after song that they want to re-experience. I never expected I could see that kind of focused attention from non audiophile young people, and it warms my heart to see them so impressed and happy to hear music like they've never heard before.
TL : DR - My definition of a good speaker is not someone telling me it sounds great, it is from seeing an uncontrollable exaggerated facial expression that a person can only have when they hear something so good it is vastly better than anything they've ever experienced, and they crave more. To me, this is the highest and most genuine level of praise someone can give.
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You're not the first one to think that way. There was a man (with a 5 figure tube powered system, he likes it warm sounding) that had the exact same thought when he heard my speaker. He then proceeded to listen to the speaker for 3-4 hours in order to find when he'll find the speaker fatiguing. He didn't. Here's what he said
"Usually when a component, i.e., speakers, amp, preamp, etc. has the level of detail and clarity that you speakers had, eventually it becomes fatiguing. And I, probably more than anyone else -- other than you -- spent more time listening to those speakers and waiting for that moment. But it didn't come."
It doesn't sound fatiguing, or even that "bright", because the rising response in the treble is counteracted by an even greater rising response in the low midrange and bass. Also, the rising response on the treble becomes less and less with greater volume (i.e., the speaker becomes objectively flatter and flatter as the volume goes up).
You're also right that a speaker with a flat tonality can be loud and never be fatiguing. The man above listened to the speaker playing at 90-100dB at the listening position for 4 hours without getting fatigue. It didn't sound that loud either. Why? Because the speaker had a subjectively flat tonality. And this is what my speaker currently achieves with nearly all volume levels.
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I find that comments of others are most sincere when the owner isn't there. Other than that, i find comments of others have no correlation with what people really think and what they do when buying a system so i'd be careful about interpreting them.
What people tell you about your loudspeakers when you are there and worst in your home may or may not be true.
Only blind testing components of unknown origin (to the listener) in unknown, controlled enviroment yields some results and allows objectivity to set in.
What people tell you about your loudspeakers when you are there and worst in your home may or may not be true.
Only blind testing components of unknown origin (to the listener) in unknown, controlled enviroment yields some results and allows objectivity to set in.
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Really good project! I like it!
Now I am working on my project and I use W5-1138SMF with passive radiator PR14 from Tang Band.
I did some measurements (electrical impedance, excursion, SPL at 1 meter) and I found out that Thiele Small parameters for PR14 from Tang Band are totally wrong. At datasheet you have resonance at 20 Hz butr real value is about 43 Hz
So maybe some of you have already found/measured/ or asked Tang Band about correct Thiele Small parameters for this passive radiator or do you know some sources were I could find it?
Thank you!
Now I am working on my project and I use W5-1138SMF with passive radiator PR14 from Tang Band.
I did some measurements (electrical impedance, excursion, SPL at 1 meter) and I found out that Thiele Small parameters for PR14 from Tang Band are totally wrong. At datasheet you have resonance at 20 Hz butr real value is about 43 Hz
So maybe some of you have already found/measured/ or asked Tang Band about correct Thiele Small parameters for this passive radiator or do you know some sources were I could find it?
Thank you!
That depends on what you mean by resonance. If this is what you measured while the driver and PR are in the box, then the resonance is the tuning frequency of the PR in that box. The Fs for the PR's listed in the spec is the free air resonance, which is the resonance when the PR is not in the box.
So I'd say, what you're seeing is normal.
By the way, for people who are following the project, I know I haven't updated in a while, but huge updates are coming soon!
Ask them what they want to eat...and they tell you chocolate and pepsi. Ask them what they want to do...and they tell you play video games and watch cartoons. Ask them about meaning of life...and they will laugh.
Seriously? You would ask 10-year old something and take them seriously?
Rubbish! So what if their hearing is better? Does not mean anything.
Remember your hifi knowledge at 10? 0!
It takes time and experience to appreciate art, vine, sound system...
Btw...200 times? Where the heck you came up with that number?
While I mostly agree with your post, I will say my 10 year old and I took one of the hearing tests for distortion at the Klippel site. He, without any training and completely unfamiliar with the music (Tracy Chapman) was in the 95th percentile. I'm much more familiar with critical listening and the music but could not do better than the 68th percentile.
I would say that I would never trust anyone who comes away with strong feelings about a speaker they listened to once in unfamiliar surroundings.
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Any updates? Absolutely enamoured with this design!
But I digress, if you wouldn’t mind sharing what your crossover slope is from the tweeter to midrange is? I’m presuming something greater than a 4th order, though that’s only a guess heh (Especially when considering how hard the tweeter is having to work given the crossover frequency)
Also, in post #22 - I believe you mentioned something of an LT bass boost to get the woofer up to where you wanted it to be...though, I’m curious in this context: does the LT you were referring to happen to be a Linkwitz Transform? If so, I thought that they weren’t suited to ported/PR based systems?
But anyways - excellent work!!!
But I digress, if you wouldn’t mind sharing what your crossover slope is from the tweeter to midrange is? I’m presuming something greater than a 4th order, though that’s only a guess heh (Especially when considering how hard the tweeter is having to work given the crossover frequency)
Also, in post #22 - I believe you mentioned something of an LT bass boost to get the woofer up to where you wanted it to be...though, I’m curious in this context: does the LT you were referring to happen to be a Linkwitz Transform? If so, I thought that they weren’t suited to ported/PR based systems?
But anyways - excellent work!!!
There are lots and lots of updates, I just don't have time to actually write about them.
Maybe I'll give a sneak peak to make the wait even more agonizing?
This is a preliminary outdoor 1m ground plane output compression measurement of a single speaker. No smoothing, no room gain whatsoever. Because I like to tease, I left off the higher volume sweeps above 100dB. I wonder how loud this goes?
(Hint, it goes a lot higher )
Maybe I'll give a sneak peak to make the wait even more agonizing?
This is a preliminary outdoor 1m ground plane output compression measurement of a single speaker. No smoothing, no room gain whatsoever. Because I like to tease, I left off the higher volume sweeps above 100dB. I wonder how loud this goes?
(Hint, it goes a lot higher )An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Wait till you see the final graphs. And also, the polar response. Hint, they might end up as just flat lines if I used smoothing
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Not really. Would consider if someone wants one though, like, I have a friend that wants one the next time I build another speaker.
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