Almost-Newbie needs some 3-way speaker & tri-amping advice :)

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Hi all,

I'm an IT guy, 37, my father is the big guru (built couple of tube & solid state amps) but we're not living together and he almost doesn't have any more time to teach me on basics of electronics or hi-fi or whatsoever.

- Ca. 15-20 years ago my first speaker set was 2 fullrange boxes made of MDF, I cut the holes, drivers in, glued together - perfect. Then blown with Prodigy at that time :D - well, youth .. you know ..

- Ca. 15-10 years ago my 2nd project: 4 boxes, 2 left, 2 right, all mdf. (3 way, separate boxes for Bass and mid+highs). 2x12" (30cm) bass drivers / side, 4 Ohms each, in series, with front-facing bass reflex holes. Mid+high in a separate box on top of it.

- Passive filter for the 3-way was set-up by myself, based on my father's instructions. He calculated me the 2 basic X-over freqs matching my speakers and I had to solder them together and wound the coils also by myself from his copper wire, using a ferrite core (for the bass coils only).. 3-way classic Butterworth design.

Still using these huge boxes, but the speakers need to be changed. Mids are from Visaton, silk dome ferrofluid tweeters from Audio-Ton ( = almost noname, sound excellent however..) .. bass drivers you can forget .. cheap whatever types..


Now I want to sweep the table and start all-new again with a far better project.

What I have:
- precision soldering iron :D
- contact to a local company building high-end grade extraordinary speakers, also for hobbyists, partly or fully .. I'd have them build my boxes. BIZSÓK Loudspeaker Manufactory
- my ultimate-looking wanna-own speaker design http://www.canhifi.com/Resources/ProductImage/ImageFile/beethoven_concert_grand_1_xtralarge_xtralarge_XtraLarge.jpg
- a 3-way active crossover design I'm going to use from Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design, fine tuned to my needs with help of my father..

Where I need advice on:
1. High sensitivity, detailing, fast, audiophile-grade speaker driver recommendation (exact models maybe?) - or at least a good store ! For bass, mids and highs.
2. No big magic pls, I'm rather the realistic type of person, not believing in placing spikes below the 230V/AC splitter :D
3. Some questions regarding tri-amping with different DIY amps

Target music: sadly I'm almost an all-eater but don't want to have 2 separate systems..
- electronic music (Goldfrapp, Air, Morcheeba, Asteroids Galaxy Tour, Jean Michel Jarre)
- Classics (Karajan Gold collection on LP, mint condition)
- Rebecca Pidgeon, Loreena McKennitt, Dire Straits, Mark Knopfler, Diana Krall CDs, SACDs, LPs and high-res DSDs
- Deep house, techno, electronic music (all lossless)


For topic #1 my imagination so far:
- 8 Ohm total. 2-4 bass drivers, 1 or 2 midrange(s), 1 tweeter
- tweeter would be a ribbon type, I LOVE their sound. DIY amp design would be carefully selected to be able to drive such tweeters with transformers.
- mids: no idea. Something from Visaton, Seas, Fostex, Scan Speak, others.. ?
- bass: no idea. Maybe 8-10" ones ? For more power handling I plan 2 pcs here (at least) - does it make sense to have 4 pcs ? (Does it increase overall sensitivity and detailing capability of the bass section while retaining decent power handling ? I hate slow bass..)
- all 3 ways at around 90+ dB sensitivity, I would like to hear details
- 80% stereo music, 20% home cinema use (2.0 stereo, maybe 2.1 but no sub planned yet)

Topic #3 - tri-amping, DIY amps.
- Does it make sense (or is it a completely wrong idea) of using a mixed setup ? MOSFET amps for bass, tube class AB pushpull for mids (Tung-Sol KT150-s), tube OTL for tweeters ? Considering phase coherence mostly.
- Gains matched, in the amp design and also on the active crossover network (matching the parameters of the driver sections of course)
- Where to put the volume controls ? (Stepped attenuators). The more towards last amp stage or right at the beginning at line level in the preamp ? (Before splitting into 3 ways).
- Passive preamp OK ? (with XLR Input from high-res DAC)

Any advice or useful info warm welcome. Please forgive me for my English and try not to laugh if I seem to dream big with so few knowledge about electronics. :) It's always that I dream and my father helps me to put things ready onto the table. ;) I'll need him for this project too but without your valuable help it would still remain just a simple oldschool design without any traces of quality. I really strive for quality here (combined with decent power), at least as far as a hobbyist I can go..

Many-many thanks !!
 
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Congratulations on your ambitions!

I would recommend the SEOS Fusion kits, which offer good build quality and freedom to finish cabinets as you like.

These are deceptive designs, where complexity has been engineered out, and what remains is solid.

You could conceivably convert them to a fully active crossover, if you desire.

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/plastic-seos-12.html

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 
Hi all,

I'm an IT guy, 37, my father is the big guru (built couple of tube & solid state amps) but we're not living together and he almost doesn't have any more time to teach me on basics of electronics or hi-fi or whatsoever.

- Ca. 15-20 years ago my first speaker set was 2 fullrange boxes made of MDF, I cut the holes, drivers in, glued together - perfect. Then blown with Prodigy at that time :D - well, youth .. you know ..

- Ca. 15-10 years ago my 2nd project: 4 boxes, 2 left, 2 right, all mdf. (3 way, separate boxes for Bass and mid+highs). 2x12" (30cm) bass drivers / side, 4 Ohms each, in series, with front-facing bass reflex holes. Mid+high in a separate box on top of it.

- Passive filter for the 3-way was set-up by myself, based on my father's instructions. He calculated me the 2 basic X-over freqs matching my speakers and I had to solder them together and wound the coils also by myself from his copper wire, using a ferrite core (for the bass coils only).. 3-way classic Butterworth design.

Still using these huge boxes, but the speakers need to be changed. Mids are from Visaton, silk dome ferrofluid tweeters from Audio-Ton ( = almost noname, sound excellent however..) .. bass drivers you can forget .. cheap whatever types..


Now I want to sweep the table and start all-new again with a far better project.

What I have:
- precision soldering iron :D
- contact to a local company building high-end grade extraordinary speakers, also for hobbyists, partly or fully .. I'd have them build my boxes. BIZSÓK Loudspeaker Manufactory
- my ultimate-looking wanna-own speaker design http://www.canhifi.com/Resources/Pr...ert_grand_1_xtralarge_xtralarge_XtraLarge.jpg
- a 3-way active crossover design I'm going to use from Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design, fine tuned to my needs with help of my father..

Where I need advice on:
1. High sensitivity, detailing, fast, audiophile-grade speaker driver recommendation (exact models maybe?) - or at least a good store ! For bass, mids and highs.
2. No big magic pls, I'm rather the realistic type of person, not believing in placing spikes below the 230V/AC splitter :D
3. Some questions regarding tri-amping with different DIY amps

Target music: sadly I'm almost an all-eater but don't want to have 2 separate systems..
- electronic music (Goldfrapp, Air, Morcheeba, Asteroids Galaxy Tour, Jean Michel Jarre)
- Classics (Karajan Gold collection on LP, mint condition)
- Rebecca Pidgeon, Loreena McKennitt, Dire Straits, Mark Knopfler, Diana Krall CDs, SACDs, LPs and high-res DSDs
- Deep house, techno, electronic music (all lossless)


For topic #1 my imagination so far:
- 8 Ohm total. 2-4 bass drivers, 1 or 2 midrange(s), 1 tweeter
- tweeter would be a ribbon type, I LOVE their sound. DIY amp design would be carefully selected to be able to drive such tweeters with transformers.
- mids: no idea. Something from Visaton, Seas, Fostex, Scan Speak, others.. ?
- bass: no idea. Maybe 8-10" ones ? For more power handling I plan 2 pcs here (at least) - does it make sense to have 4 pcs ? (Does it increase overall sensitivity and detailing capability of the bass section while retaining decent power handling ? I hate slow bass..)
- all 3 ways at around 90+ dB sensitivity, I would like to hear details
- 80% stereo music, 20% home cinema use (2.0 stereo, maybe 2.1 but no sub planned yet)

Topic #3 - tri-amping, DIY amps.
- Does it make sense (or is it a completely wrong idea) of using a mixed setup ? MOSFET amps for bass, tube class AB pushpull for mids (Tung-Sol KT150-s), tube OTL for tweeters ? Considering phase coherence mostly.
- Gains matched, in the amp design and also on the active crossover network (matching the parameters of the driver sections of course)
- Where to put the volume controls ? (Stepped attenuators). The more towards last amp stage or right at the beginning at line level in the preamp ? (Before splitting into 3 ways).
- Passive preamp OK ? (with XLR Input from high-res DAC)

Any advice or useful info warm welcome. Please forgive me for my English and try not to laugh if I seem to dream big with so few knowledge about electronics. :) It's always that I dream and my father helps me to put things ready onto the table. ;) I'll need him for this project too but without your valuable help it would still remain just a simple oldschool design without any traces of quality. I really strive for quality here (combined with decent power), at least as far as a hobbyist I can go..

Many-many thanks !!
Thank you for your link, I'll check it tomorrow. :)
Cheers !

Sent from my Xiaomi Redmi Note2 using Tapatalk
 
Most ribbon tweeters need to be crossed high, usually above 4KHz which means that you are usually best off with a smaller mid, about 4" or maybe 5" depending on the cone breakup and the off-axis response. But to get high SPL's and an 8ohm load, you probably need 2 of them (2 x 4ohm in series), so an MTM on the top end.

To get the low end it sounds like you want (no sub), I think you'll need at least a couple of 8" woofers if not 2 x 10". Again look for 2 x 4ohm drivers in series for the right impedance result. The 10" on the front might need a wider cabinet than it looks like you may be after, so you could possibly mount them on the sides, but that depends a little on your woofer to mid xo point which may be just a little too high if you are going with some smaller woofers. Running 2 x 8ohm woofers in parallel for a 4ohm load may open you up to a few more driver choices. Depends on what you do for amps though.

In Europe:
https://www.intertechnik.com
https://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/

Budget is unspecified so it's hard to suggest specific drivers. But......

Look at SB Acoustics, ScanSpeak Discovery and Peerless for excellent quality to price ratios. Fountek is making some decently priced ribbons. Splurge on the mid if you have a choice, something like the 5" Satori for example.

Just 1 potential combo:

Fountek Neo CD3 or CD3.5H
2 x Satori 5" 4ohm
2 x ScanSpeak Discovery 22W4534G00
 
I would not start DIY amps and speakers at the same time. It's almost impossible to diagnosis the reason why your multiple amp system sounds somewhat strange, and I'm sure it will, unless you are extremely lucky person. :) I would start DIY speaker with the amps I already know very well, or buy 3 clean digital amp modules.

Also you will need acoustic measurement equipments to complete your project.

Good luck and have fun!
 
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Most ribbon tweeters need to be crossed high, usually above 4KHz which means that you are usually best off with a smaller mid, about 4" or maybe 5" depending on the cone breakup and the off-axis response. But to get high SPL's and an 8ohm load, you probably need 2 of them (2 x 4ohm in series), so an MTM on the top end.

To get the low end it sounds like you want (no sub), I think you'll need at least a couple of 8" woofers if not 2 x 10". Again look for 2 x 4ohm drivers in series for the right impedance result. The 10" on the front might need a wider cabinet than it looks like you may be after, so you could possibly mount them on the sides, but that depends a little on your woofer to mid xo point which may be just a little too high if you are going with some smaller woofers. Running 2 x 8ohm woofers in parallel for a 4ohm load may open you up to a few more driver choices. Depends on what you do for amps though.

In Europe:
https://www.intertechnik.com
https://www.falconacoustics.co.uk/

Budget is unspecified so it's hard to suggest specific drivers. But......

Look at SB Acoustics, ScanSpeak Discovery and Peerless for excellent quality to price ratios. Fountek is making some decently priced ribbons. Splurge on the mid if you have a choice, something like the 5" Satori for example.

Just 1 potential combo:

Fountek Neo CD3 or CD3.5H
2 x Satori 5" 4ohm
2 x ScanSpeak Discovery 22W4534G00
Wow, many thanks, very useful hints. I'll check your recommendations in the weekend.. (busy like hell at the moment) :( Cheers !!

Sent from my Xiaomi Redmi Note2 using Tapatalk
 
I would not start DIY amps and speakers at the same time. It's almost impossible to diagnosis the reason why your multiple amp system sounds somewhat strange, and I'm sure it will, unless you are extremely lucky person. :) I would start DIY speaker with the amps I already know very well, or buy 3 clean digital amp modules.

Also you will need acoustic measurement equipments to complete your project.

Good luck and have fun!
I might also build it with 3 almost similar amps.. don't know yet but anyway if the system sounds really strange afterwards, I still can revert to a 2-monoblock setup and use the remaining smaller monoblocks elsewhere, e.g. give it to my sister with smaller 1 or 2-way DIY boxes with passive filter or so... There's always room for a good amp in the family :))

Sent from my Xiaomi Redmi Note2 using Tapatalk
 
Active setup

hi,

Last year i finished a active multi-way speaker with some chinese LJM amplifiers.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/196089-l12-2-cfp-output-amp-120w-2-8r.html
They are for cheap on Ebay, but don't be fooled their measured performance in really excellent. Also low (idle) power dissipation.
I used the combination with a fourth order Linkwitz Riley filter and the result was a superb sounding setup.
 
Most people simply can not discern any difference between different amplifiers as long as they do not know which one they are listening to. Call it a "double-blind test" or DBT. As long as the levels are carefully matched, any competent amplifier sounds much like another one, as long as neither has run out of power.

Most solid-state amps work very well into either 8 ohm or 4 ohm loads. I don't think this will be an issue for you. Choose drivers based on performance, not on impedance.

Crossover design needs to be done based on driver performance measured IN THE BOX. Easiest way to do this is with a measurement microphone and free software. Many use some form of digital crossover, which allows very easy modification and equalization based on measurements... If you read more of Linkwitz' site, you will see that the three-way tri-amp system was one of his very early systems. I've built that for the car I had 20 years ago, and found it quite good for then....
 
Most people simply can not discern any difference between different amplifiers as long as they do not know which one they are listening to. Call it a "double-blind test" or DBT. As long as the levels are carefully matched, any competent amplifier sounds much like another one, as long as neither has run out of power.

Most solid-state amps work very well into either 8 ohm or 4 ohm loads. I don't think this will be an issue for you. Choose drivers based on performance, not on impedance.

Crossover design needs to be done based on driver performance measured IN THE BOX. Easiest way to do this is with a measurement microphone and free software. Many use some form of digital crossover, which allows very easy modification and equalization based on measurements... If you read more of Linkwitz' site, you will see that the three-way tri-amp system was one of his very early systems. I've built that for the car I had 20 years ago, and found it quite good for then....

:cheers: Thanks for the input.

So far something seems to outline in my brain:

- 3-way LR-Crossover recalculated (lifting mid-high crossover a little bit to protect the ribbon tweeter even more): Linkwitz-Riley Electronic Crossover

- Found high-sensitivity midrange to complement the high-sensibility ribbon tweeter

- High-sensi bass driver wanted, but none is capable of reaching the mid-high section alone, so I have to multiply them, 2 pcs / side. 10" - 12" ones might fit in pairs, but with a sensi at around ~90dB each I only found strong ones e.g. 1000W RMS which is an overkill (although parameters and freq. look brilliant).

- If I take 2 smaller ones (8" each) I get less power (still plenty of).. but then my resonant frequency increases and I want to keep it as low as possible, that's why I look for 12" basically.

- If I take 1 highly sensible 12" bass driver with enormous power reserves, I might consider multiplying the midrange section to be able to follow the power of bass section -> average sens. drivers will fit for sure, but then I'm at around 90dB with the low-mid section, having a still highly sensible ribbon at ~95 , oops .. (and I definitely won't multiply the ribbons as well to handle power).

- Oookay, let's take a ~95dB ribbon tweeter and a ~95dB midrange (actually, a fullrange used as midrange). Still need to reach ~95db with 2 woofers. Power is split so I might be fine with 2 smaller ones as well with a cumulative ~95dB sensitivity but smaller drivers have again higher resonance freq. which is in my opinion ..well.. not that very much desirable.

- OR using 1 ribbon crossed safely high, 2 or 4 somewhat less sensible midranges (to handle power) and 2 sensible 10-12" beasts for lows. And then I begin to pray for the tweeters when playing disco :D

Still combining, n+1 browser tabs open, mmmmmm. Tough job. But I still believe in a somewhat-more-or-less ideal combination of all of these.

- Sensitivity-vise I begin from the top 'cause I LOVE ribbon sound.
- Power-vise I'd like to stay moderate (due to the ribbon's max power handling capabilities and I don't need a disco anyway)..
- Looking at freq. curves, cutoffs from different angles..
- Trying to match nominal impedances, sensitivities with or without multiplying some drivers..
- .. to find the best balance of electrical parameters and quality (if I believe the data sheets of course) ..
- taking the filter into consideration as well (slope of cutoff freq, etc.)..
- and that magic gain trimmer in each way's amp section ..
- and the rest of trimmers in the LR filter circuit itself ..

Huh. Kinda brain work for the evening to find the best compromise :D :crackup: and I'm still on paper (or not even on paper yet), no measurements, nothing.

But I always tell myself: Hey, that's DIY :smash: and the beauty of it all even if I fail somewhere on this minefield.. :hbeat:
 
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I just want to confirm that your goals are attainable, I have a similarly wide range of musical taste. (We must be brothers..lol)

Tackle one area at a time if at all possible. DIY amps are possible down the road, perhaps the Pass designs are of interest for the mids and highs.

Being able to measure driver ts params, driver response, and room response is critical.

I designed my passively crossed over speaker system starting about 10 years ago and it has evolved. I started with tubed electronics that I had designed and built previously that was well vetted with a suitable predecessor speaker system. I later moved on and designed a whole new generation of tubed electronics designed around the existing speaker system.

One comment about amplifiers relates to design philosophy, all good solid state amps essentially behave like near to ideal voltage sources, most tube amps and class A solid state gear not using GNFB generally don't - simplistically one can be modeled as a voltage source with some series resistance between it and the load. My point is only to design the speaker system to accommodate the sort of amplifiers you intend to use with them and to largely stick with that family of device once you embark on the project. (This is most critical on the bass end of things, and not nearly as big a deal with mids and highs.) Recommend you protect the fragile mids and tweeters from possible amplifier failure (DC offset) with suitable series capacitors. (They basically should have no effect on frequency response for at least an octave below the electronically generated xo point. Since I use analog stuff mostly I tend to like 2 octaves or so.)

DSP based equalization and XO may be the best way long term of guaranteeing good results if the other choices you have made are good ones.

Good luck and have fun!
 
@ kevinkr thanks for that positive mindset, inspires me. Brothers ? Anytime. :D

I think I understand in basic what you told here now but definitely will ask my father to take all these into consideration. Safety comes first. If I could live with my Onkyo 6.1 (in stereo mode) and cheap DIY set for 10+ years (quite satisfied, friends too) then anything could be even better than that. :)


@ All: meanwhile just targeted a seems-to-be-good ribbon:
- https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/ribbon-tweeters/lcy-130-ribbon-tweeter-130-mm-round/
- 92dB (easier to follow/match with low and midrange) - or shall I go for the original one at around 95dB ? Detailing capability will be the same I assume. Power is there from amp side..
- goes pretty high to satisfy the musical taste of my bats on the tree nearby (using adequate hi-res source of course) :)
- vertical plane dispersion seems to be better controlled (at least, told so..) than with most ribbons..
- power handling (whatever "nominal" means here) pretty decent for a ribbon and I believe it, taking 24dB slope and 3.5k-4k xo into consideration

- mids: something from here: Dayton Audio Made Loudspeaker Components and Speaker Building Products - "reference series" midrange(s) or a "point of source" fullrange for mids if I stick to 95dB tweeter

- bass: maybe too..

Good night, gentlemen (10:31 pm in EU now). ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9At8NS7wHrE
 
This is just in case you're not familiar with this or if you have perhaps forgotten:

- 2 drivers in series gets you the same sensitivity as a single driver but impedance is doubled
- 2 drivers in parallel gets you a 6dB increase in sensitivity but a halving in impedance. This is why so many dual mids and dual woofers are wired in parallel. And because many (most?) amps today have no problem with a 4ohm load.

So just to double check - must you limit yourself to 8ohm driver loads?

Also, driver size is not necessarily the final arbiter of how low a woofer will play. Instead, it's a driver's combination of TS parameters that determine if it is more suitable to a closed or ported box and how low (F3/F6/F10) it will play in a given size box. Each driver needs to be simmed in a competent box modeling program, like Unibox (Excel required) or WinISD pro to know what it's going to do on the low end. You may find that defining your design F3 goal and your max woofer box size may help you in your woofer selection.
 
Project pics

Finished multi-amp project with amp modules and Linkwitz Riley filter
 

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