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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 28th May 2017, 10:09 PM   #31
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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After long considerations I've decided to work with these drivers (meant for 1 side here):

- low: 1x Dayton Audio PA460-8 18" Pro Woofer
- mid: 4x FaitalPRO 6FE100 6" Professional Midrange Midbass Woofer 8 Ohm
- high: 1x Aurum Cantus AST25120 Aero Striction Tweeter 8 Ohm


Outfit would be most-probably:
- separate trapezoid vented box for the bass driver (something like here but lower and no parallel walls)
- separate thin box for the mid-high section (still considering a grouped-together design in favor of vertical sound dispersion instead of the classic thin-tall design).. put onto the bass box..
- white piano finish
- all speakers will be IEC-measured again one by one in the lab to see real data instead of manufacturer datasheet (and correct/calculate any deviations)

Further considerations and ideas:
- speakers selected with more or less the same sensitivity (mids have lower SPL but 2 in series and then this to parallel increases sensitivity by +6dB and will match with the bass and tweeter) - just for backup purposes, should the system be driven with passive 3-way crossover and 1 stereo amp temporarily

- generally good sensitivity (around 98dB all, that's okay)
- power handling when using them as home cinema fronts (30% of time)
- custom preamp (passive ? active?)
- 24 dB/Octave 2/3-Way Linkwitz-Riley Electronic Crossover, XO freqs at around 250Hz and 2.5 KHz
- tri-amping
- Bass: some kind of MOSFET monoblocks at around 500-700W 8 Ohms
- Mids: tube push-pull class AB with KT 150s ~ 150-200W 8 Ohms
- Highs: not sure yet. Pushpull class A OTL might be weak here, or even not.. (have couple of 6C33C-B NOS tubes).. I'm also open to MOSFET again too .. or else.. whatever drives the ribbons the best (sonically)..
- gains matched..
- going to be my very personal big experience, all this stuff. I hope the best.

Last edited by Vortex; 28th May 2017 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 16th June 2017, 03:02 AM   #32
karl sartori is offline karl sartori
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Default re:multi way

for crossovers i suggest you try a dbx pa2 unit,plug it in and go ,it has the ability for you to adjust all parameters on the fly.check it out on youtube.i've been using it for a couple of years in aDIY triamped phono system and it is spectacular,no sound colouring whatsoever, it being a digital unit.my threepence worth.
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Old 28th October 2017, 03:50 PM   #33
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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Thanks, I'll give it a try
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Old 7th December 2017, 08:29 PM   #34
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piersma View Post
Finished multi-amp project with amp modules and Linkwitz Riley filter
Do you use same amp modules for bass-mid-highs ? (I mean: absolutely the same?)

Right now I'm thinking of healthy-required power needs to driver the sections with enough peak-reserve.. so I came across
- a 2500W@4R Class-D for the bass
- ca. 250W@8R for the mids
- ca. 100W@8R for the highs

Now how I'm going to design amps for that, is another question. 2 factors to be considered:
- I have to maintain the same amplification gain in the designs all over the chain as a basis, allowing for some fine-tuning of gains via DSP or preamp or on the amps themselves. Any good practice where to adjust these ? I think there're several points we can fine-adjust gains and achieve the same SPL at the end
- amps for mids and highs can be "smaller", they require less power so the PSU part can shrink as we go up with freq.

For the Class D I'm going to buy a Hypex UcD2k.

Amps for the mids and highs are still open, although DIY for sure. Just cannot release the challenge and the fun of building these for ourselves. All class AB for sure.. (don't want to heat the room).
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Old 9th December 2017, 05:50 PM   #35
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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Made some calculations for the most critical part - bass. The small increase in SPL peaking at ~130Hz is the "Simulate voice coil inductance"-effect of WinISD. True or not, that's it for now.

I played around with the parameters and I'll probably go with the red line version - 600 liter box, tuned at 24Hz. It's also ideal, somewhere around an almost 1 meter long cylinder with a 18" diameter (like the speaker itself). I might correct the bass section with gain on the filter side - or even leave it as is.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 9th December 2017, 09:13 PM   #36
globalplayer is offline globalplayer  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
Made some calculations for the most critical part - bass. The small increase in SPL peaking at ~130Hz is the "Simulate voice coil inductance"-effect of WinISD. True or not, that's it for now.

I played around with the parameters and I'll probably go with the red line version - 600 liter box, tuned at 24Hz. It's also ideal, somewhere around an almost 1 meter long cylinder with a 18" diameter (like the speaker itself). I might correct the bass section with gain on the filter side - or even leave it as is.

Click the image to open in full size.
You want the FR of the enclosure flat. In this design you loose 3dB of bass output.
Ideally you want to look at the datasheet of the speaker where the speaker rolls off like 3 to 6 db and then tune the box so it will have a 3 db boost a little lower where the speaker rolls off and the port will make a flat curve in the end and extend bass range for free and flat.
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Old 10th December 2017, 02:04 PM   #37
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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I'll equalize accordingly. Or even win this back with correct placement since the boxes will be put into a room. We'll see after some fine tunings regarding gains & some equalization, if needed at all. The DSP will do the trick.
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Old 10th January 2018, 01:55 PM   #38
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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@ Steve/BlueWizard (from the other topic):

The Faital midranges are exceptional, confirmed by one of my friends who works with PA stuff since more than 10 years (stage amplification). This applies to some standalone midbass/miranges of larger size as well. This is what I consider now, using 1 bigger midrange of ~95dB, this way I avoid this 4-midrange-madness I got into , furthermore I win some vertical space to lower tweeter and midrange into head-position when sitting. Originally I planned a vertical array with the 4 midranges but then all these stacked on top of the huge woofer would have placed the tweeter too high already for a sitting listener and AMT's vertical dispersion isn't that great we all know.

Faitals are great and they also handle power well, according to some russian youtubers a guy tried to burn a Faital midrange "as usual" (crazy guy) and couldn't manage, BMW car hifi, big amp (although 2000 Watts car-amp -> usually meant for 2 Ohms, so trying to burn a PA 8 Ohm midrange with that hmm.. so-so.. might be strong enough or even not). These are fine PA stuff, apart of good linearity and great sensitivity also very well built so I just completely skipped normal home hi-fi range of speakers (except the AMT tweeter which is again, capable of 100W RMS. Even if only the half of it is true, crossed far above factory recommendation, in a safe 2-2.5kHz region, I don't have the feeling I'm going to blow them tomorrow). They're not cheap ? Well, I'm not that millionaire type but looking at how nice it would fit into this design I cannot resist. Speakers (if good) serve for years anyway right ? I like ribbons anyway.

Quote:
It would take slight exception to the crossovers you have chosen, but that's a matter of personal opinion. Give the very wide response of the Woofer, I would be inclined to think 250hz and 2000hz to 2500hz. 150hz takes the Midrange down to the bottom of its workable range. The more inside the workable range, the better the Mid is going to perform as is true of just about everything in life. Pushed to the limited, it is going to be strained, well inside the limits, substantially less strained.
You're right, I'll lift lower XO a bit upwards. Original very-first design was a box with a smaller front and a side firing woofer so to avoid rising bass directivity I tried to keep first XO as low as possible (that's also the reason for the 4th order LR). Now with a front facing bass driver I can lift a bit (but don't want too much. If I look at Mark Knopfler's voice on my spectrum analyzer I'd try to keep him mostly on the midranges - sounds crazy hmm ? Yes.. I dare to drive the strong mids at their lower 'limits' although they're stated as midwoofers, in fact it's mainly box size which I can still keep small to nicely cope with the bass with a sharp LR4 filter.

Quote:
Also, especially on the low end, the closer you are to the low end limit, the less power handling you have. Though in your case with 4 Midrange, that's probably not a concern. An array of 4 would give you double the power handling, half the excursion, and a +3db boost in the output.
Yeah, LR4 helps here, again. If I'm trying 2nd order filters on the DSP first, I might increase lower XO to 200-250-ish Hz-s to see what happens.
Check this one - what I'm shooting for now. I don't think power handling would be an issue for the midrange, bass is 500W RMS so 200W RMS for 1 midrange is more than adequate here (in theory but I'll listen at fractions of all these of course) Low fs (outside of my planned mid region - less trouble with rising impedance), quite good freq response and even the 45 off-axis response is pretty nice, the scissor between 0and 45 opening significantly well over 3K where I'm on tweeter already so crossing at around 2-2.5kHz I still might achieve a nice sound dispersion (horizontally). Vertically it's another thing, basically limited by the AMT but I don't care, I listen while sitting.

Quote:
Generally PA Woofers do not go as low as Hi-Fi Subwoofers. The disadvantage to a Subwoofer is that the impedance is relatively low, and that implies you have to drive it with a separate amp. Though you were planning to do that anyway.
I have absolutely NO experience with PA stuff. This will be the first PA build. I like experimenting and taking risks, but considering the specs and the fact that PA stuff follows the stated specs probably more exactly than normal drivers do (PA manufacturers don't dare to lie that big) I hope a good sound with PA now. Box will be large however, I just ignored recommended size. For the music I'm listening to and looking at my spectrum analyzer, uh, no, 40-ish f3 is a bit high for me especially if this is a vented box with sharp slope down below f3.

Quote:
Keeping in mind you have to subtract the volume of the drivers from the internal volume of the cabinet. So, let's throw in a bit more for the volume of the driver.
1.75 ft (21")W x 2.75 ft H x 3ft D = 14.44 Ft
Is that a workable cabinet for you?
Oh my.. I'm sitting in the middle of Europe and going crazy of these metric/imperial switches. Aaaahh. (Sry not your fault). So.. If my calculator doesn't cheat on me, it's about 408 liters (408 dm^3) so yes.. I'm still going a bit larger, for now my WinISD project tells me 452 liters (15.98ft^3) tuned at 28Hz (just at fs) and f3 at 25.7Hz.

Quote:
Lastly, if a full Active Speaker system, what Crossovers were you planning to use?
DSP first, it will provide me some filter types but after all what I've read here and there on the internet, I might try the LR4 type. Especially reading this here. Slope-wise I'm striving for a narrow crossover range so the sharper slopes the better (if SPL-s and/or amplitudes are matched nicely), only constrain is the ringing which increases with higher order filters - but hey, I let my ear decide. Now I'm on 3-way 2nd-order Butterworth passive one so this new project will be kind of a "holy ****" experience (in either directions but I hope the better one here)

For bass driving (500W RMS stated) I'm still (or again?) struggling what to use as amp. Class D I would allow here if I'm striving for plenty of reserve power. Some say +3dB needed for peaks so 1kW would be fine just in case I turn up the volume occasionally. But considering normal room power I might omit this +3dB peak reserve 'cause I won't reach that power requirement anyway so I might go for a 500W-ish Class AB Mosfet, custom build (with help), not more.

When Class D, I have a recommendation, a quick tip was the Hypex Ncore amps. Still thinking if I need this for normal living room powers, however, a 500Watt-ish Class AB is heating like crazy. Summer is hot here so there's a good chance I'm going for the Hypex boards.
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Last edited by Vortex; 10th January 2018 at 02:04 PM.
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Old 10th January 2018, 02:39 PM   #39
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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10PR330 .. just put couple of midranges into WinSD, this seems to be the best fitting - but actually, all are OK, I just fine-tune the results.
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Old 10th January 2018, 07:37 PM   #40
BlueWizard is offline BlueWizard  United States
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1.75 ft (21")W x 2.75 ft H x 3ft D = 14.44 Ft (21"H x 33"W x 36"D)

Bass box only -

53.3cm W x 83.8cm H x 91.4cm D

Using 4 Six Inch drivers in a 2x2 array, I estimate the Mid Box to be 53.3cm wide.

So to get the overall height of the system - 53.3cm + 53.3cm + (best guess) 15.24cm for an overall height of 121.84cm or 47.97 inches.

But that is internal volume allowing a bit more for wood and seams, I would take it up to a bit over 50 inches or 127cm or 1270mm.

53.3cm Wide x 127cm High x 91.4cm Deep. Though the Mid-Box would not have the 91.1cm deep.

Steve/bluewizard
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