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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Almost-Newbie needs some 3-way speaker & tri-amping advice :)
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Old 1st March 2017, 06:46 PM   #11
Piersma is offline Piersma  Netherlands
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Default Cross-0ver

For the crossover you might also consider:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digit...01-module.html
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Old 1st March 2017, 07:56 PM   #12
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jplesset View Post
Most people simply can not discern any difference between different amplifiers as long as they do not know which one they are listening to. Call it a "double-blind test" or DBT. As long as the levels are carefully matched, any competent amplifier sounds much like another one, as long as neither has run out of power.

Most solid-state amps work very well into either 8 ohm or 4 ohm loads. I don't think this will be an issue for you. Choose drivers based on performance, not on impedance.

Crossover design needs to be done based on driver performance measured IN THE BOX. Easiest way to do this is with a measurement microphone and free software. Many use some form of digital crossover, which allows very easy modification and equalization based on measurements... If you read more of Linkwitz' site, you will see that the three-way tri-amp system was one of his very early systems. I've built that for the car I had 20 years ago, and found it quite good for then....
Thanks for the input.

So far something seems to outline in my brain:

- 3-way LR-Crossover recalculated (lifting mid-high crossover a little bit to protect the ribbon tweeter even more): Linkwitz-Riley Electronic Crossover

- Found high-sensitivity midrange to complement the high-sensibility ribbon tweeter

- High-sensi bass driver wanted, but none is capable of reaching the mid-high section alone, so I have to multiply them, 2 pcs / side. 10" - 12" ones might fit in pairs, but with a sensi at around ~90dB each I only found strong ones e.g. 1000W RMS which is an overkill (although parameters and freq. look brilliant).

- If I take 2 smaller ones (8" each) I get less power (still plenty of).. but then my resonant frequency increases and I want to keep it as low as possible, that's why I look for 12" basically.

- If I take 1 highly sensible 12" bass driver with enormous power reserves, I might consider multiplying the midrange section to be able to follow the power of bass section -> average sens. drivers will fit for sure, but then I'm at around 90dB with the low-mid section, having a still highly sensible ribbon at ~95 , oops .. (and I definitely won't multiply the ribbons as well to handle power).

- Oookay, let's take a ~95dB ribbon tweeter and a ~95dB midrange (actually, a fullrange used as midrange). Still need to reach ~95db with 2 woofers. Power is split so I might be fine with 2 smaller ones as well with a cumulative ~95dB sensitivity but smaller drivers have again higher resonance freq. which is in my opinion ..well.. not that very much desirable.

- OR using 1 ribbon crossed safely high, 2 or 4 somewhat less sensible midranges (to handle power) and 2 sensible 10-12" beasts for lows. And then I begin to pray for the tweeters when playing disco

Still combining, n+1 browser tabs open, mmmmmm. Tough job. But I still believe in a somewhat-more-or-less ideal combination of all of these.

- Sensitivity-vise I begin from the top 'cause I LOVE ribbon sound.
- Power-vise I'd like to stay moderate (due to the ribbon's max power handling capabilities and I don't need a disco anyway)..
- Looking at freq. curves, cutoffs from different angles..
- Trying to match nominal impedances, sensitivities with or without multiplying some drivers..
- .. to find the best balance of electrical parameters and quality (if I believe the data sheets of course) ..
- taking the filter into consideration as well (slope of cutoff freq, etc.)..
- and that magic gain trimmer in each way's amp section ..
- and the rest of trimmers in the LR filter circuit itself ..

Huh. Kinda brain work for the evening to find the best compromise and I'm still on paper (or not even on paper yet), no measurements, nothing.

But I always tell myself: Hey, that's DIY and the beauty of it all even if I fail somewhere on this minefield..
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Old 1st March 2017, 08:06 PM   #13
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piersma View Post
For the crossover you might also consider:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digit...01-module.html
Need to research a bit on this, what's under the hood.
Thanks
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Old 1st March 2017, 08:06 PM   #14
kevinkr is offline kevinkr  United States
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Almost-Newbie needs some 3-way speaker & tri-amping advice :)
I just want to confirm that your goals are attainable, I have a similarly wide range of musical taste. (We must be brothers..lol)

Tackle one area at a time if at all possible. DIY amps are possible down the road, perhaps the Pass designs are of interest for the mids and highs.

Being able to measure driver ts params, driver response, and room response is critical.

I designed my passively crossed over speaker system starting about 10 years ago and it has evolved. I started with tubed electronics that I had designed and built previously that was well vetted with a suitable predecessor speaker system. I later moved on and designed a whole new generation of tubed electronics designed around the existing speaker system.

One comment about amplifiers relates to design philosophy, all good solid state amps essentially behave like near to ideal voltage sources, most tube amps and class A solid state gear not using GNFB generally don't - simplistically one can be modeled as a voltage source with some series resistance between it and the load. My point is only to design the speaker system to accommodate the sort of amplifiers you intend to use with them and to largely stick with that family of device once you embark on the project. (This is most critical on the bass end of things, and not nearly as big a deal with mids and highs.) Recommend you protect the fragile mids and tweeters from possible amplifier failure (DC offset) with suitable series capacitors. (They basically should have no effect on frequency response for at least an octave below the electronically generated xo point. Since I use analog stuff mostly I tend to like 2 octaves or so.)

DSP based equalization and XO may be the best way long term of guaranteeing good results if the other choices you have made are good ones.

Good luck and have fun!
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Old 1st March 2017, 08:16 PM   #15
Piersma is offline Piersma  Netherlands
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Default SPL matching

One of the fine benefits of a multi-amp system is that you do not need to match the sensitivities of the drivers
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Old 1st March 2017, 08:32 PM   #16
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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@ kevinkr thanks for that positive mindset, inspires me. Brothers ? Anytime.

I think I understand in basic what you told here now but definitely will ask my father to take all these into consideration. Safety comes first. If I could live with my Onkyo 6.1 (in stereo mode) and cheap DIY set for 10+ years (quite satisfied, friends too) then anything could be even better than that.


@ All: meanwhile just targeted a seems-to-be-good ribbon:
- https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-130-mm-round/
- 92dB (easier to follow/match with low and midrange) - or shall I go for the original one at around 95dB ? Detailing capability will be the same I assume. Power is there from amp side..
- goes pretty high to satisfy the musical taste of my bats on the tree nearby (using adequate hi-res source of course)
- vertical plane dispersion seems to be better controlled (at least, told so..) than with most ribbons..
- power handling (whatever "nominal" means here) pretty decent for a ribbon and I believe it, taking 24dB slope and 3.5k-4k xo into consideration

- mids: something from here: Dayton Audio Made Loudspeaker Components and Speaker Building Products - "reference series" midrange(s) or a "point of source" fullrange for mids if I stick to 95dB tweeter

- bass: maybe too..

Good night, gentlemen (10:31 pm in EU now).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9At8NS7wHrE
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Old 1st March 2017, 08:34 PM   #17
Vortex is offline Vortex  Hungary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piersma View Post
One of the fine benefits of a multi-amp system is that you do not need to match the sensitivities of the drivers
Indeed, but I'm still trying to avoid big differences here. Anyway, you're right and I'll have to compensate for it on filter/amp side then.
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Old 1st March 2017, 10:04 PM   #18
jplesset is offline jplesset  United States
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Better than "have to" compensate for sensitivities, it becomes trivial to do so, and becomes part of setting the crossover up. Gain controls are going to be in your amps or your crossovers or if DSP, integral in the crossover. Don't be afraid of DSP, it makes your job so much easier to get the sound you want.
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Old 1st March 2017, 10:53 PM   #19
jReave is offline jReave  Canada
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This is just in case you're not familiar with this or if you have perhaps forgotten:

- 2 drivers in series gets you the same sensitivity as a single driver but impedance is doubled
- 2 drivers in parallel gets you a 6dB increase in sensitivity but a halving in impedance. This is why so many dual mids and dual woofers are wired in parallel. And because many (most?) amps today have no problem with a 4ohm load.

So just to double check - must you limit yourself to 8ohm driver loads?

Also, driver size is not necessarily the final arbiter of how low a woofer will play. Instead, it's a driver's combination of TS parameters that determine if it is more suitable to a closed or ported box and how low (F3/F6/F10) it will play in a given size box. Each driver needs to be simmed in a competent box modeling program, like Unibox (Excel required) or WinISD pro to know what it's going to do on the low end. You may find that defining your design F3 goal and your max woofer box size may help you in your woofer selection.
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Old 2nd March 2017, 05:42 PM   #20
Piersma is offline Piersma  Netherlands
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Default Project pics

Finished multi-amp project with amp modules and Linkwitz Riley filter
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File Type: jpg L-R filter.JPG (39.0 KB, 179 views)
File Type: jpg Multi-amp.JPG (33.3 KB, 177 views)
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