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Old 28th February 2017, 03:42 AM   #21
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So it sounds like Dissi is agreeing with me. Best is to get a new tweeter, and redo the whole thing. How about the low profile, Be Scanspeak?

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E
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Old 28th February 2017, 08:37 AM   #22
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Sure, one is free to do just about anything, only in my opinion it doesn't make sense to think about changing drive units before exhausting all XO modification options an then listening. Even then, if one is still not satisfied with results, the next best thing is to get rid of the whole product and sell it in its original condition.
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Old 28th February 2017, 01:39 PM   #23
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Ah, the frustrations of diyaudio!

Nobody wants to do any diy, when it comes to it.

You guys have this speaker in front of you. Me, I'm guessing. If you can't trace a schematic, or measure a cutout hole on a baffle, how you going to do stuff?

It's actually a good jazz speaker, by all accounts:
Quote:
Summing up
When John Atkinson suggested that I review the Monitor Audio Silver RS6, I never expected the level of realism I ended up hearing from this loudspeaker. There's nothing much more I can say—the flawless and exceptional Silver RS6 gave me more listening pleasure than any other loudspeaker I have reviewed for Stereophile. In my more than 20 years of reviewing, I have not reviewed an audio component that produced greater sound quality per dollar than Monitor Audio's Silver RS6.
Read more at Monitor Audio Silver RS6 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
But I have seen so many versions of the crossover, which has clearly evolved, that I don't know what is going on. Somebody needs to roll their sleeves up here.

From what I am seeing, the tweeter is crossed quite low, and has reliability issues and a ragged response. I'd be examining whether this 91dB jobbie might fit:
H1212-06 27TBFC/G

Not hard to adjust the resistor at the tweeter filter input. A third order tweeter filter can fill a hole in power response. A zobel (7.5R/0.68) can tame some top end stridency with metal tweeters.

What often happens with commercial designs, is severe compromises are made in crossover just to fit it on the back of a plastic biwired speaker terminal.

IMO, a notch at 5kHz on a 6" metal driver is a good idea. It would be good to actually do some measurement of where the notch should go. The serious diyer has a decent multimeter too. But Dissi's idea of 4uF and 0.25mH shunt can't be wildly off. Really, we are just eating popcorn in the gallery. If you have this speaker, you should try some stuff.
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File Type: jpg Monitor Audio RS6.JPG (21.3 KB, 77 views)
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Old 28th February 2017, 02:23 PM   #24
Dissi is offline Dissi  Switzerland
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I tried some replacement tweeters in my simulation and got some interesting results.

The Morel ET 448 has been reported as promising candidate. The simulation shows a very nice result and confirms full compatibility. No crossover modification is required. The same applies to the Morel CAT 408. However, these are rather large domes and they are quite expensive.

A cheaper solution, but not lower in quality, is the SB Acoustics SB26STCN-C000-4. This is a 4 ohm tweeter and it needs an additional resistor between crossover and driver. But the result is amazing (at least in the simulation). Everything falls into place.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SimulationMonitorAudioRS6-SB26.jpg (119.7 KB, 74 views)
File Type: jpg CrossoverMonitorAudioRS6-SB26.jpg (62.1 KB, 120 views)
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Old 28th February 2017, 04:56 PM   #25
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A nice set of finds, indeed, Dissi!

Best,

E
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Old 28th February 2017, 06:13 PM   #26
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I bought the cinema package rs6/rs1/rs lcr and subwoofer a great deal at the time used the guy selling built a cinema in his house,only wanted the RS6 but price got the lot for a song, he was running an onkyo amp and it was good.

They blew me away and my father, who have both messed about with hi-fi for years. The RS6 sat listening to them gave us both an insight into music drifting back n forth left to right holographic unrealism no longer just good sounding music but............binning cds with crap recordings very revealing.

I still have them but after playing around with compression drivers horns and twin 15" drivers they run out of steam but are fantastic for their price point and footprint. Iwould recomend them to anyone to try,

watching with interest
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Old 28th February 2017, 07:00 PM   #27
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Charlie,

Yeah, that's my point too. They sound much better than they measured. Of course, when I had them I didn't have the tools and addiction to modding things I do now.

It's interesting also to look at the response of the latest generation of MA speakers both in the frequency and time domain. Their top speakers measure superbly.

Best,

E
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Old 1st March 2017, 12:29 AM   #28
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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We do seem to be making progress on this. My theory is that Monitor Audio have evolved this one a bit after a shaky start.

Dissi's image with his 4 ohm tweeter:

Click the image to open in full size.

I was hoping Troels Gravesens's 6" metal woofer CNO-25 was going to enlighten us:
CNO-25

But, alas a partially series crossover, which is a bit confusing. It's an interesting fact that series crossovers have an element of notch built into them anyway, and work particularly well with 6" drivers, IMO.

But his 6" paper cone CA18RNX 2.5 way is very interesting:
CA18RNX

Crossover fans will notice the 5kHz tank notches on bass and mid. This could be just what we want. The 1:3 (4.7uF/0.22mH/15uF) capacitor ration 3kHz BW3 tweeter filter is familiar too, here with a bit of RL rolloff. Trust me on this, 1mH and 1uF makes 5kHz, as does 4uF and 0.25mH as a rule of thumb. Or 3.9mH and 0.22uF, roughly...

Where I'm leading, is it wouldn't be hard to notch the bass driver with a tank.
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File Type: png SEAS CA18RNX Troels Gravesen 2.5 way.PNG (12.7 KB, 110 views)
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Old 2nd March 2017, 11:39 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissi View Post
I tried some replacement tweeters in my simulation and got some interesting results.

The Morel ET 448 has been reported as promising candidate. The simulation shows a very nice result and confirms full compatibility. No crossover modification is required. The same applies to the Morel CAT 408. However, these are rather large domes and they are quite expensive.

A cheaper solution, but not lower in quality, is the SB Acoustics SB26STCN-C000-4. This is a 4 ohm tweeter and it needs an additional resistor between crossover and driver. But the result is amazing (at least in the simulation). Everything falls into place.
Hi Dissi,

I'm looking to upgrae the tweeters in my RS8 and RSLCR speakers. I've destroyed three tweeters already and the TRS-025 is clearly a very cheap tweeter even though MA charge £50 for a replacement. The RS6 probably sound better overall, as the RS8s are quite boomy in addition to having the bright top end.

Would you be able to advise if the ET-448 is compatible with these speakers or whether crossover mods are required? Likewise, could you advise on the additional resistor value for these if I went for the SB Acoustics tweeters instead?

I'd be very grateful for your help as been looking to upgrade these for years but don't quite have the budget for entirely new units.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf XRS LCR crossover detail.pdf (82.8 KB, 4 views)
File Type: pdf XRS8 (v2) crossover detail.pdf (86.8 KB, 6 views)
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Old 3rd March 2017, 12:23 AM   #30
Dissi is offline Dissi  Switzerland
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Hi meeko,

I now have verified my simulations and came to the conclusion, that the sensitivity of the RS speakers actually is higher than I assumed. As consequence the Morel CAT 408 drops out of the list because it is too silent. The additional resistor required for the SB26 now is only 1 ohm. The resistor even can be omitted when a hot top end is preferred. Adjust it to your taste.

I have no idea if the replacement tweeters do fit mechanically. But the simulations for the RS8 and the RS LCR look promising IMO. Except for the additional 1 ohm resistor in case of the SB26 there's no crossover modification required.

Good luck, and don't buy the Morels, they are too expensive!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Simulation_RS8_ET448.jpg (113.6 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg Simulation_RS8_SB26.jpg (113.8 KB, 12 views)
File Type: jpg Simulation_RS_LCR_ET448.jpg (120.5 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Simulation_RS_LCR_SB26.jpg (120.7 KB, 80 views)
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