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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

TDL Studio 3 crossover upgrade is better and yet worse as well
TDL Studio 3 crossover upgrade is better and yet worse as well
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Old 31st January 2017, 11:16 PM   #1
irishiranian is offline irishiranian  United Kingdom
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Default TDL Studio 3 crossover upgrade is better and yet worse as well

Hiya,

I've just replaced all of the components in my TDL Studio 3s crossover.

I've gone for point to point soldering on the components without a pcb or board of any sort.

I've used the following components.

3.9uF 800Vdc Jantzen Superior Z-Cap (ON THE TREBLE)
10R Jantzen Superes 10W Resistor
2R2 Jantzen Superes 10W Resistor (2.2R)
12uF 450V Mundorf Mcap EVO Capacitor (ON THE BASS)

I've also got new inductors of the same value as the originals done by Gerry at Falcon who knows TDL speakers well.

The improvements in the treble is night and day. Much cleaner, more space better soundstage. The bass seems a tiny bit flabbier (not much in it though) but it's the midrange that seems to be worse. Not terrible but noticeably more muffled than before.

I've still got the original Xover in tact but before I start mixing an matching I thought I'd see what you all think could be the reason.

I'm letting them burn in/ run in to see if that makes a difference (I'm not trying to start a chat about that well trodden and controversial issue so let's pretend I never said it...just trying to eliminate all the possibilities!)

The only differences with the original values is the high pass cap which is a 3.9 rather than the original 4. I've also extended the wires a little as they were quite short and needed extra room to work. No more than 6cm with some decent van damme cable I had. I've used solder with a bit of silver in it and they have been running for a day or 2. Oh and the resistors are 10w instead of 5 but I don't believe that should make and difference.

Can anyone suggest why the midrange seems to have got worse?

Thanks
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Old 1st February 2017, 01:37 AM   #2
Old'n'Cranky is offline Old'n'Cranky  Australia
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Got it all connected correctly ?
Got the drivers connected in the right phase ?

Go back over it all one connection at a time.
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Old 1st February 2017, 01:52 AM   #3
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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The reason the treble seems improved is that it's probably just a 1dB or so louder! Because NP electrolytics have an ohm or so of resistance. You'd possibly add an ohm or two at the input to compensate this.

When you do a rebuild you also tend to expose fresh metal on contacts, which always helps after years of oxidation.

It's not usually recommended to change NP electrolytics on bass shunts to foil types. They have a significant resistance which can help avoid a bass peak and worsened phase alignment at crossover.

Without a schematic, which you are in a better position to draw than me, it's hard to say what is going on.

AFAIK, these are twin 16 ohm polycones of some sort, aka Cobex, possibly wired in parallel. A metal tweeter, which may need fresh ferrofluid, available from Blue Aran in the UK, or Parts Express in the US.

There's lots of things you can do to a speaker like this to improve it, but crossover component upgrades are the least of them. But we all start somewhere...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg TDL Studio 3.JPG (25.5 KB, 440 views)
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Old 1st February 2017, 04:17 AM   #4
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Yes, slight changes in treble level can sometimes mess up the mids and bass. Less so if they weren't well balanced to begin with.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 01:06 AM   #5
irishiranian is offline irishiranian  United Kingdom
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Thanks for the responses. I'll try and add an ohm to the treble and freshen up the ferro fluid.

Just to check as I'm a novice...did you guess already...is it better to add the extra resistor before or after the cap. I'm guessing it shouldn't make a difference as long as it's before it comes out of the speaker.

I'll probably order a few different resistors of different values starting with half an ohm unless you think that would be too Small?

Thanks again
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Old 2nd February 2017, 01:26 AM   #6
nannoo is offline nannoo
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before the cap.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 12:10 PM   #7
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Every ohm in front of a 6 ohm (DC) tweeter filter reduces level 1dB. 3dB is a lot, it's half power.

I'd think 3W Maplin wirewounds will do fine. Get 1R and 2.2R, which should be plenty of adjustment. A tweeter is unlikely to ever run at more than 10W.

You could add an ohm or two resistance to the bass capacitor shunt too. I'd probably use 5-10W wirewounds there.
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Old 12th February 2017, 07:50 PM   #8
irishiranian is offline irishiranian  United Kingdom
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Thanks all.

System 7 - what other mods would you suggest?
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Old 13th February 2017, 05:25 AM   #9
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishiranian View Post
Thanks all.

System 7 - what other mods would you suggest?
Without seeing a schematic of the crossover, nothing much at all.

If you are seriously wanting to change stuff here, you need the schematic. You should also measure the DC resistance of the drivers, and the baffle cutout hole sizes. Are these 8" 16 ohm polycones, for instance? I think we decided they have metal tweeters which may need new ferrofluid.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 04:20 PM   #10
irishiranian is offline irishiranian  United Kingdom
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studio 3 schematic.jpgHiya,

Here's the schematic.

The original high pass cap is actually 4 not 3.9. I bought a Janzen 3.9 which sounds very nice but I wonder if the fact it 0.1 uf out will make any difference? (My gut/ears says it is a bit...Janzen don't do a 4 anyway so I have ordered one with a value of 4 from another manufacturer...will report back)

I tried adding a 0.33ohm resistor to the high pass and it sounded very dull and out of whack so I removed it.

I'll sort the wiring out last as I want to tinker a bit with a few different caps first.

Yes they are metal dome tweeters but I don't think there's any need for ferrofluid as the sound is quite sweet and open with the Janzen in. The output sounds the same from both speakers.

It's just the midrange that seems a little off with the Janzen (will the high pass cap make any difference to what goes to the low pass?? ...maybe the new low pass cap has a different R to the original)?

I've ordered a different cap (same value as schematic) for the low pass just to see if that changes anything.

I'm wary of putting a lesser resistor on the low pass because I don't want too risk to much current going to the woofers as I'm not able to replace them if something bad happens...should I be?
I do have a 9.1 ohm that I could try (rather than the prescribed 10 that is in there now).

I have a slightly different model to the one in your picture. I'm guessing it's a later one because it has a flat front rather than the lip for the grill on the older ones. The woofer surround is circular too rather than the squarer ones in other models.

It looks more like this one https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_li...studio-3.shtml Although I can't find any photos of similar ones online. Any ideas what the difference is?

So many questions!! Sorry. I'm not very well versed in electronics.

I just love these speakers (They're the 6th and best pair of TDL/IMFs I have owned!)

Any other things I could tinker with...I'm trying to do them one by one so I can learn what's happening as I go!!

Thanks for taking an interest so far.

Christian

Last edited by irishiranian; 23rd February 2017 at 04:23 PM.
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