I just need an advice and i am no more than curious about the upgrade as i don't think i have heard the speakers in their full potential yet.That said the crossovers seem to be easily reached and there would be no butchering involved if i replace parts.
They are Quadral Aurum Phonologue Titan VII and the visible crossover board behind the ''mirror'' on the back is one of two crossover sections.As you can see it is populated by high-quality Mundorf MKP and MKT caps,which are ''cheap'' at retail,but parts of that ilk are not out of place in most commercial loudspeakers,retailing for up to six figures.I wonder if it would be beneficial if i replace the caps with Mundorf Supremes or similar exotic caps.Every speaker is built to a cost and caps like the Mundorf SESGO are too much for all but the cost no object products.
I see two problems.First,the price.It is a lot of parts and i can easily spend more than a thousand pounds,even without going overboard with Duelunds or the likes.Maybe the solution would be more affordable ones as the Audyn Reference.BTW,the latest Titan IX uses Audyn Q4.Second,i just don't see the space as it is a snug fit as it is and fancier caps with the same values and the same or higher voltage rating are much bigger.I can't see how would they fit.
Lastly,would it really matter if i replace everything with fancy caps.And is there a danger of achieving the opposing effect,degrading the sound.It is a very complex crossover,it's not like replacing a single cap in a ''purist'' design.
So the viability would revolve around space,budget and technical constraints.
Any thoughts?
They are Quadral Aurum Phonologue Titan VII and the visible crossover board behind the ''mirror'' on the back is one of two crossover sections.As you can see it is populated by high-quality Mundorf MKP and MKT caps,which are ''cheap'' at retail,but parts of that ilk are not out of place in most commercial loudspeakers,retailing for up to six figures.I wonder if it would be beneficial if i replace the caps with Mundorf Supremes or similar exotic caps.Every speaker is built to a cost and caps like the Mundorf SESGO are too much for all but the cost no object products.
I see two problems.First,the price.It is a lot of parts and i can easily spend more than a thousand pounds,even without going overboard with Duelunds or the likes.Maybe the solution would be more affordable ones as the Audyn Reference.BTW,the latest Titan IX uses Audyn Q4.Second,i just don't see the space as it is a snug fit as it is and fancier caps with the same values and the same or higher voltage rating are much bigger.I can't see how would they fit.
Lastly,would it really matter if i replace everything with fancy caps.And is there a danger of achieving the opposing effect,degrading the sound.It is a very complex crossover,it's not like replacing a single cap in a ''purist'' design.
So the viability would revolve around space,budget and technical constraints.
Any thoughts?
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Hi Mainaman!
You are a man after my own heart.
Before you go nuts upgrading, I suggest you trace out the circuit, and learn what's where. Also, I see some troublesome things. Before upgrading parts willy-nilly it's really good to look at the whole circuilt. Consider using XSim to draw out your schematic and posting pics here.
XSim free crossover designer - diyAudio
Your best benefits are in parts that are in series, but I have heard good things from replacing cheap parallel caps on the woofer with good films.
The Mundorf MKP's are remarkably good for their price. Mundorf MKP's are also really good at taming harshness in the treble. For their price, they excel at low level detail.
Part of this is also about what kind of sound you like. If you want more "scintilation" or "saturation" in your treble then the top end Mundorf EVO (silver in oil for instance) may do it for you. If you want more natural air and space Clarity MR or Jupiter copper, or maybe we can cheat bypassing with Audyn True Copper caps.
You should also try replacing any resistors in series with your tweets or mid-ranges with Mills.
Best,
Erik
You are a man after my own heart.
Before you go nuts upgrading, I suggest you trace out the circuit, and learn what's where. Also, I see some troublesome things. Before upgrading parts willy-nilly it's really good to look at the whole circuilt. Consider using XSim to draw out your schematic and posting pics here.
XSim free crossover designer - diyAudio
Your best benefits are in parts that are in series, but I have heard good things from replacing cheap parallel caps on the woofer with good films.
The Mundorf MKP's are remarkably good for their price. Mundorf MKP's are also really good at taming harshness in the treble. For their price, they excel at low level detail.
Part of this is also about what kind of sound you like. If you want more "scintilation" or "saturation" in your treble then the top end Mundorf EVO (silver in oil for instance) may do it for you. If you want more natural air and space Clarity MR or Jupiter copper, or maybe we can cheat bypassing with Audyn True Copper caps.
You should also try replacing any resistors in series with your tweets or mid-ranges with Mills.
Best,
Erik
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For what it is worth, replacing capacitors of a higher voltage rating is pointless, a 400 volt working voltage is more than enough for any domestic loudspeaker.
A higher voltage rating will simply drive up the price without any benefit.
The capacitor tolerances already used in your crossover are close tolerance types, any improvement on that tolerance will hardly make for an improvement in the perceptible sound quality. Passive crossovers have gradual slopes initially in their rollover characteristic so closer capacitance tolerance in your case would hardly matter.
The worst component used in a passive crossover is the inductance. Iron cored and P-cored inductances are at best a compromise, they provide a high inductance with usually a low DC resistance as against that of an air-cored inductor.
Iron cored and P-cored inductors suffer from magnetic hysteresis which is somewhat non-linear and could give rise to harmonic distortion at high signal levels.
Whether this becomes audible will depend on where the cored inductor is used and the current value flowing through it. Normally cored inductors are used at bass frequencies and as such any harmonic distortions produced may not be clearly audible unless it is driven into magnetic saturation.
So if there were one thing that could be considered as an improvement it would have to be the iron cored inductance. But then, changing that to an equivalent 'air-cored' inductor of the same value and DC resistance would be very expensive and bulky to include, and may not make any significant difference audibly.
Personally, I would leave it as is.
C.M
Hello mainaman!
This is hardly a way to improve anything about a loudspeaker and that is an understatement. There is the audiophile way and there is the right way. The right way is the engineers approach and you can't do that unless you're one. My best advice would be to find yourself another loudspeaker that will meet your expectations more fully. May I suggest a Wharfedale Airedale.
This is hardly a way to improve anything about a loudspeaker and that is an understatement. There is the audiophile way and there is the right way. The right way is the engineers approach and you can't do that unless you're one. My best advice would be to find yourself another loudspeaker that will meet your expectations more fully. May I suggest a Wharfedale Airedale.
Thanks for the replies.I am happy with the speakers as they are and i just wanted an opinion for the crossover as it is so easily reachable and there has been very pricey speakers with upgraded crossovers,it is not unprecedented.
''Will hardly make for an improvement in the perceptible sound quality'',i am not an engineer and the fact that i have no idea what inductors are used means i will not pursue this any further.I have seen measurements on my speakers and they are as good as it gets.
The voltage rating was higher,because the parts like the Evo Supreme have simply higher rating.
''Will hardly make for an improvement in the perceptible sound quality'',i am not an engineer and the fact that i have no idea what inductors are used means i will not pursue this any further.I have seen measurements on my speakers and they are as good as it gets.
The voltage rating was higher,because the parts like the Evo Supreme have simply higher rating.
Every speaker is a balancing act of price / performance and the designer's preferences. There are also some crossovers that are just wrong, they don't need new parts, they need a new design..
Ideally before spending a bunch of money on parts you should analyze the complete speaker. At the end of the day you may find the parts you need are entirely different, or components can be removed entirely. Since the capacitors are normally unseen, many "high end" manufacturers go with the cheapest possible, and spend money on chat can be seen: cabinets, connectors and drivers.
There is also a matter of technology. Mundorf Supremes have been replaced by the Supreme Evo line. Stuff like that.
Now, will it be financially worth it... that's another story completely.
Erik
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A full technical analysis is well beyond my skills,let alone reengineering the crossover.Especially as this could necessitate changing the boards!
It is all academic as even if i had the technical and financial means there is simply no estate for fitting huge Supreme EVOs and air core inductors.
What would be a wrong crossover,a B&W 800D
It is all academic as even if i had the technical and financial means there is simply no estate for fitting huge Supreme EVOs and air core inductors.
What would be a wrong crossover,a B&W 800D
Do your speakers give an illusion resembling the performers being right there in front of you? If no, how.. do they lack weight, does sibilance seem to betray the speakers location e.g., the likely causes and fixes are different.
I agree that swapping parts is not the first place to look for performance vs effort and cost. Even if it were, your crossover parts are already quite good.
I agree that swapping parts is not the first place to look for performance vs effort and cost. Even if it were, your crossover parts are already quite good.
Like i said I don't think that i have exploited their full potential yet.When i bought them i didn't detect a big improvement over my previous speakers,Revel Performa F50,only the tweeter was much better.I wasn't worried,because i was still using a cheap DAC,Teac UD-501 and i was sure that it was a bottleneck in my setup.I tried other,more expensive DACs with mixed results.
Last winter i tried an inexpensive turntable and now i own a decent analogue front end,which makes my Intona/UD-503 combo sound like a MP3,even with DSD files.Vinyl doesn't seem very popular on the DIY forums,but it is the only way to listen to music for me now.Even digitally recorded pop albums can sound better!I heard some very expensive DACs last year(admittedly not at home),none impressed me much.''An illusion resembling the performers being right there in front of you''?Even vinyl,bought for 50p,can do it very convincingly.
These true full-range speakers dont have any ''real world'' faults and i don't shy from nitpicking.All the usual audiophile criterias like ''transparency'',''soundstaging'',etc.;they dont lack in any area.What's amazing is that they sound totally all-of-a-piece and make even two way (admittedly cheaper)speakers sound disjointed.No easy feat with a magnetostat,15'' woofer and 4th order crossover.
The F50 were a big upgrade over my Kef Reference 2.2,which were a bit coloured in absolute terms.The Titans are a definitive upgrade over the Revels in ALL areas,especially in the highs,where the titanium Focal tweeter is simply no match for the resolution,dynamics and naturalness of the magnetostat.
They are very critical with cables and Nordost(not Valhallas),for example,was a very bad match.
I measured and used Dirac for a while,but it wasn't worth it.They don't boom as it is and i dont even have a big room.
I just wonder:if the crossover parts are already quite good,what are the 100 times more expensive SESGO,Duelunds or Vcaps for?Are we talking about (very) diminishing returns?
Last winter i tried an inexpensive turntable and now i own a decent analogue front end,which makes my Intona/UD-503 combo sound like a MP3,even with DSD files.Vinyl doesn't seem very popular on the DIY forums,but it is the only way to listen to music for me now.Even digitally recorded pop albums can sound better!I heard some very expensive DACs last year(admittedly not at home),none impressed me much.''An illusion resembling the performers being right there in front of you''?Even vinyl,bought for 50p,can do it very convincingly.
These true full-range speakers dont have any ''real world'' faults and i don't shy from nitpicking.All the usual audiophile criterias like ''transparency'',''soundstaging'',etc.;they dont lack in any area.What's amazing is that they sound totally all-of-a-piece and make even two way (admittedly cheaper)speakers sound disjointed.No easy feat with a magnetostat,15'' woofer and 4th order crossover.
The F50 were a big upgrade over my Kef Reference 2.2,which were a bit coloured in absolute terms.The Titans are a definitive upgrade over the Revels in ALL areas,especially in the highs,where the titanium Focal tweeter is simply no match for the resolution,dynamics and naturalness of the magnetostat.
They are very critical with cables and Nordost(not Valhallas),for example,was a very bad match.
I measured and used Dirac for a while,but it wasn't worth it.They don't boom as it is and i dont even have a big room.
I just wonder:if the crossover parts are already quite good,what are the 100 times more expensive SESGO,Duelunds or Vcaps for?Are we talking about (very) diminishing returns?
The clarity and tranparency of an audio signal is largely dependent on the linearity and the harmonic distortion levels being produced by one's loudspeaker drivers.
A good loudspeaker driver will generally produce around 0.3 % 3rd harmonic distortion over it's usable range at a reasonable listening level, 2nd harmonic distortion is likely to be higher. Of course with loudspeaker drivers there are many not so good and some that are exceptional. The point I am making here is that loudspeaker drivers are very non-linear devices and produce significant distortion levels in comparison to other components in the audio signal path.
Any supposed benefits derived from swapping out close tolerance, well manufactured capacitors for some highly priced, exotic brand is simply fanciful thinking when one considers the varying distortion levels produced by a loudspeaker in the changing SPL of sound reproduction.
If you want to change the sound of your speakers ....move them or use the tone controls on your amplifier. The listening environment affects our perception of sound more than anything else, and a few changes in location can work wonders with loudspeakers.
C.M
No, no returns at all in the sense of sound improvement, not objectively anyway. Have you noticed the naming convention of these products?
Gold, silver...etc.
Or gross exaggeration. Not necessarily in line with the price and not necessarily an improvement. There is such a thing as a bad capacitor, for a number of possible reasons. Most are not bad and it doesn't take much cash to get a good one. That will get you close to the mark.
You'll create more of a difference using a wrong value.
By the way, I have some M-caps like in your crossover and I've used them in speaker crossovers and as amplifier coupling caps. I'm currently using them as power supply finals on my valve pre stage. No complaints.
You'll create more of a difference using a wrong value.
By the way, I have some M-caps like in your crossover and I've used them in speaker crossovers and as amplifier coupling caps. I'm currently using them as power supply finals on my valve pre stage. No complaints.
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