This is just a post to canvas opinion.
I’ve been listening to full-range and F.A.S.T. speakers for a few years. I’ve also used some vintage 10’s and 12’s full range in boxes with helper tweeters. My current FAST are great to my pedestrian ears on most uncomplicated music. Jazz ensembles, indie rock, surf, vocals, all work for me. Most classical doesn’t. Something is missing. Music sounds compressed, sound stage collapses, etc. etc.
IF I were mainly concerned with dynamics at relatively low sound levels and had as many channels of ~30W tube amplification as I needed, what sort of speakers would you suggest?
Room is moderately lively, about 7m X 4.5m X 2.7m height, BUT, room arrangement is such that the room is essentially cut in half making the effective floor space available for the stereo about 3.5m X 4.5m with the speakers on the 3.5m side and a listening distance of ~3.5m.
DSP is fine. Bass extension to F3~40Hz would be nice. Cabinet volume <100L would be nice too.
Econowave?
TG’s TQWT?
Sunflower?
Some big GPA coaxials in corner cabinets?
My gut instinct is that I need at least a 3-way with some big drivers to cover the upper bass and mids. I understand that multiple large drivers will be hard to integrate into a smallish space. Knowledge on the forum is certainly better than mine, so I would LOVE to hear suggestions from all of you sage experts. Thanks!
I’ve been listening to full-range and F.A.S.T. speakers for a few years. I’ve also used some vintage 10’s and 12’s full range in boxes with helper tweeters. My current FAST are great to my pedestrian ears on most uncomplicated music. Jazz ensembles, indie rock, surf, vocals, all work for me. Most classical doesn’t. Something is missing. Music sounds compressed, sound stage collapses, etc. etc.
IF I were mainly concerned with dynamics at relatively low sound levels and had as many channels of ~30W tube amplification as I needed, what sort of speakers would you suggest?
Room is moderately lively, about 7m X 4.5m X 2.7m height, BUT, room arrangement is such that the room is essentially cut in half making the effective floor space available for the stereo about 3.5m X 4.5m with the speakers on the 3.5m side and a listening distance of ~3.5m.
DSP is fine. Bass extension to F3~40Hz would be nice. Cabinet volume <100L would be nice too.
Econowave?
TG’s TQWT?
Sunflower?
Some big GPA coaxials in corner cabinets?
My gut instinct is that I need at least a 3-way with some big drivers to cover the upper bass and mids. I understand that multiple large drivers will be hard to integrate into a smallish space. Knowledge on the forum is certainly better than mine, so I would LOVE to hear suggestions from all of you sage experts. Thanks!
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I think the problem with the subjective* lack of dynamics has to do with directivity. I find horn speakers to sound more dynamic than than a typical wide dispersion 6.5" woofer / 1" dome tweeter loudspeaker, from which I think that you need loudspeakers with a higher directivity. Might also be because of the rough horn sound though (higher order modes?).
On another forum I once read that you can play constant directivity loudspeakers much louder in a room before they start to sound compressed than a typicial non constant directivity hi-fi loudspeaker. That difference disappears outside: the hi-fi speaker then suddenly can play loud without sounding compressed. This difference also points to something about directivity, as the (lack of) reflections is the difference between inside and outside.
*If you take dynamics as the difference between loud and soft, all loudspeakers operating in their linear regime (which they do when played at low levels) are equal in terms of dynamics: they follow the dynamics that are defined by the source.
On another forum I once read that you can play constant directivity loudspeakers much louder in a room before they start to sound compressed than a typicial non constant directivity hi-fi loudspeaker. That difference disappears outside: the hi-fi speaker then suddenly can play loud without sounding compressed. This difference also points to something about directivity, as the (lack of) reflections is the difference between inside and outside.
*If you take dynamics as the difference between loud and soft, all loudspeakers operating in their linear regime (which they do when played at low levels) are equal in terms of dynamics: they follow the dynamics that are defined by the source.
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Thanks TBTL. Your point is taken regarding my misuse of the word dynamics!
Do you have any suggestions for a constant directivity DIY design?
I once turned a couple of oblate-spheroidal waveguides on a lathe and put them over the top of a pair of karlsonators (thanks again to Greg B and X) in which I placed some Beyma pro 12". I moved on when I picked up some high-end 4" full range. Perhaps I need to revisit that or a similar setup.
I wonder if my room is big enough and listening distance long enough for one of the large Autotech Iwata horns over a big woofer. Maybe the GPA Altec 604 would do the trick as well.
Do you have any suggestions for a constant directivity DIY design?
I once turned a couple of oblate-spheroidal waveguides on a lathe and put them over the top of a pair of karlsonators (thanks again to Greg B and X) in which I placed some Beyma pro 12". I moved on when I picked up some high-end 4" full range. Perhaps I need to revisit that or a similar setup.
I wonder if my room is big enough and listening distance long enough for one of the large Autotech Iwata horns over a big woofer. Maybe the GPA Altec 604 would do the trick as well.
But what about taking into consideration the load it presents to the amp? Even when its Same amp, same volume, the current draws going to be different so essentially it's a different amp and different power handling. I think high efficiency speakers are more dynamic because one reason being they require less from the amp, so essencially you have more powerful amp driving it.
Any properly deployed(get the crossovers right) prosound based drivers will deliver the goods. For bass I would suggest solidstate power and keep the tubes for mids on up. DSP will get you whatever response you want as long as you have enough displacement available. One example might be an 18" driver in 100 liters sealed with a 1000w amp. Eq to taste.
Don't forget to measure the speaker outside and in your listening position. Room effects on speakers in the bass/low midrange will ruin any chance of getting a clean dynamic sound.
Don't forget to measure the speaker outside and in your listening position. Room effects on speakers in the bass/low midrange will ruin any chance of getting a clean dynamic sound.
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And how low would you cross the 18 to limit beaming issues? A 2-way with that big of a woofer would seem to dictate a whopping big waveguide/horn on the mids-highs. I don't need that much output volume, so maybe a pro 12 or 15 with some eq might just be the trick.
Any other thoughts or strategies?
Any other thoughts or strategies?
+1
I'm finally about to move from 4-way to 3-way because i stumbled on that:
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 18FH500
which is one of the most impressive driver i tried so far, and one that you can probably base your project on. With a DSP, between 50-65 liters sealed enclosure would be enough. Good for a flat 25hz-600hz, which allows for some crazy FAST or even CAST.
I think your instinct is right about the big drivers to cover the first octaves. But not sure about the ''at least 3-way''.
You'd probably enjoy an array of small 2.5-3.5'' wideband in OB + a woofer such as the 18FH500 or similar. Class D on the woofers + tube amp on the widebands, all DSP @ min. 48db/oct + EQ.
A FAST on steroid. Might even side-load the woofers for some enhanced WAF.
The big horn isn't about volume....it's about control.
I was once at the Klipsch engineering facility and we did some listening tests. What I learned was a larger horn can work better in a small room than a smaller horn.
Seemed counter intuitive to me until we heard them in their chamber. The smaller horn allowed more of the sound to wrap around the sides, creating more destructive interference on the side walls.
The larger horn controlled more of the sound, to a lower frequency, pointing it more of where you wanted it to go. This kept it off the side walls and created less room issues.
Same bass bin, different top horns. 2-way horn system (Jubilee)
With the smaller horn, you could stand behind the speaker and hear various things. With the larger horn, it was not "dead silent" however, there was far far less sound behind the speaker than with the smaller horn.
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Hi Coytee. Sorry, I think I didn't get my point across well.
By saying "I don't need that much output volume", I was referring to the suggestion of using an 18" woofer. By going to a 12" or 15", I could use more EQ and possibly get enough extension without running out of xmax. Consequently, by using smaller woofers, I could cross over higher and potentially use a smaller horn/waveguide. Smaller would only be to save space. I had a couple of 65cm tractrix horns in the living room for a while and that was too much.
By saying "I don't need that much output volume", I was referring to the suggestion of using an 18" woofer. By going to a 12" or 15", I could use more EQ and possibly get enough extension without running out of xmax. Consequently, by using smaller woofers, I could cross over higher and potentially use a smaller horn/waveguide. Smaller would only be to save space. I had a couple of 65cm tractrix horns in the living room for a while and that was too much.
Not sure why we're now trying to get you to add a bunch of big woofers and dsp and horns and and...
First, let's talk about what you actually said. Your FAST works for some music, but not for others. It doesn't work for music that, no surprise, for full range - even in a FAST - may not be the best choice. Your issue is a typical one that gets posted all the time. Thing is you have provided no information on what speakers you have, what the crossover is, what measurements have been taken. We need ALL of that before we start telling you to spend a bunch of money on stuff we have no idea will really give you what it is you're looking for. For all we know you just need to cross over higher or you have a driver mismatch, or just need a decent multi-way.
We need more information.
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