If I can get 15 years life out of a pair of speakers I will be happy. I will be 55 in Feb and another 15 years would mean I'd be 70 before my speakers die.
Yes I will have to protect the rubber surround and every thing that it NOT the cone itself (including the gold center dust cap).
Yes I agree that the simulations are very, very, good. In the years before 1995 I had LMS and LEAP (LienarX) and used these to measure and design several speakers (about 30 pairs). Today (20 years on) I am sure computing power offers very accurate results.
I will discuss heat resistance with 3M. I have already contacted the technical people at 3M-India and they are willing to send me samples of all the products they sell locally. Their reply was "try everything and buy what works for you".
My rear speakers (W16NX) for this system are aluminum cone. My bedroom rear speakers are Mg cone but oddly enough they are not affected. These speakers were not veneered and polished but wall papered (with the same wall paper we applied on the wall. (see pic). Thing is we let the polish dry for 2-3 weeks before installing the drivers. So I don't think it is the polish.
Yes I realize the effort involved. I don't shy away from effort. I don't think any of us DIYers do (or we'd be buying speakers instead of building them).
I can't spray on the rear as the basket will get in the way. I would have to use some sort of foam applicator. So I will be testing the thickness of wax applied by a foam applicator as well.
Given my age, if I get 15 years life I am content. I will get the itch to build a new pair before that anyway (my wife calls it a disease
). You mean to clamp the rear magnet to the backside? Oh I did not do that for this pair. I did do it for the bedroom pair (which uses ScanSpeak 18WU woofers).
..and (besides the actual truth about these 'facts') how does that help preventing the corrosion?
I am
about that too! Airbrush is a brilliant idea for the front of the cone. The rear might require a more "precise" method given that the basket is in the way.
Another brilliant idea. You guys are in "the zone" today!
Thank you ALL of you! I don't know how far I would have gotten without your support.
I sincerely hope others on diyaudio also benefit from this experience. There are several Mg Excel SEAS builds. Take this one for instance.
DIY my dream come true and ...go!
In my email to SEAS I did link this discussion so maybe they can take care to protect their drivers better as well. I intend to resend the mail I sent yesterday to SEAS on Jan 2nd so that this does not get lost in the volume of mail they have received over the holidays.
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I would really wait to hear from SEAS.
Its an active product they sell and has major corrosion issues in some parts of the world.
They have either figured out the right protective coating or should advice you on how to protect your drivers.
I would be surprised if they refuse to take this seriously.
Its an active product they sell and has major corrosion issues in some parts of the world.
They have either figured out the right protective coating or should advice you on how to protect your drivers.
I would be surprised if they refuse to take this seriously.
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I pray and hope that you are right. They might surprise us all in which case I would be the happiest to report the same.
One thing that came to mind is that SEAS has been making these Excel Magnesium drivers since 2004 or maybe even earlier. I remember this superb build
Seas Excel TMM (finished) from a few years ago
and this one that is current...you got to see the whole thread - the internal bracing and woodworking is simply fantastic.
DIY my dream come true and ...go!
I would think that by 2012 (when I ordered my drivers) they would have sorted out this corrosion issue. Maybe it occurs far too rarely?
Seas Excel TMM (finished) from a few years ago
and this one that is current...you got to see the whole thread - the internal bracing and woodworking is simply fantastic.
DIY my dream come true and ...go!
I would think that by 2012 (when I ordered my drivers) they would have sorted out this corrosion issue. Maybe it occurs far too rarely?
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Update Jan 3rd 2018:
I have re-emailed SEAS. I suspect my earlier email might have got lost in the volume of emails they received over the holidays.
I found the email IDs of Håvard Sollien their Product Manager, Claus Futtrup (who is the CTO), and Jorge Lopez (who is in R&D). Since this is a technical problem, I assume these are the right guys.
Meanwhile I still wait for the ceramic coat from someone who treats Mag-Alloy wheels for Super Cars.
I have re-emailed SEAS. I suspect my earlier email might have got lost in the volume of emails they received over the holidays.
I found the email IDs of Håvard Sollien their Product Manager, Claus Futtrup (who is the CTO), and Jorge Lopez (who is in R&D). Since this is a technical problem, I assume these are the right guys.
Meanwhile I still wait for the ceramic coat from someone who treats Mag-Alloy wheels for Super Cars.
I got a reply from SEAS. I am quoting the relevant sections below. The rest is about contacting my sales channel.
"The white powder is Magnesium corrosion, which stems from the speakers being stored (or used) in a hot and humid climate. I think you know this already. The corrosion doesn’t affect performance (until there’s an actual hole in the cone), but we admit it doesn’t look good. The only way to prevent this from happening is to make sure the speakers are kept in a fairly dry condition at all time.
Please go through the sales channel to process your complaint. Maybe they’ll give you a good offer on the replacement drivers, as you suggest. SEAS doesn’t manage end-users directly, since we’re strictly an OEM business. Our limited manufacturer warranty is 3 years from production date...."
I guess the warranty is only for 3 years so I will have to rely on whatever discount the original sales channel I used to buy these drivers provides. I have been offered a discount of 25% from the sales channel but I was hoping that SEAS would have taken some responsibility. Oh well.
To reiterate I have 2 choices:
a. Ensure the coating I have found protects the drivers without significant effect on T/S or sound and avail of the 25% discount.
b. Do a complete redesign using other drivers. This would mean no discounts.
I would not repeat that, spend money and have all the effort and probably end up the same again anyway. I mean, the warranty is void once you modify the drivers. 25% off, that's still a lot above the wholesale price, that means they will still make a profit off you. Other manufacturers got very nice drivers too and, I have to add, are often a lot cheaper while delivering the same excellent qualities. That said, it's clear I vote for #2.
I completely agree, they even make money by that! I could not justify to myself to even reward them with another purchase and profit for such a behaviour.
Hi,
in my mind, SEAS should be more cooperatve. I check the data sheets for climatic restriction, but i didn't find anything about climatic conditions. That means, under 'normal climatic conditions' the drivers should not show corrosison after x years.
It's the responsibility of SEAS to coat their speakers for an optimal protection for usual climatic conditions. Remember, Denmark and Normay, their origin, also have coast areas with a lot humidity and salty air. This is the best condition to enforce corrosion. For me a minimum of 50% or more off, is acceptable.
It's their responsibilty to protect their products, not happened. Or to make restriction in their papers about climatic conditions, not happened.
Afaik this is not the first discussion about corrosin of SEAS magnesium drivers here.
Profit 1st, customer 2nd is not a good attitude.
Lots of success for the discussions with your sales channel
Günni
in my mind, SEAS should be more cooperatve. I check the data sheets for climatic restriction, but i didn't find anything about climatic conditions. That means, under 'normal climatic conditions' the drivers should not show corrosison after x years.
It's the responsibility of SEAS to coat their speakers for an optimal protection for usual climatic conditions. Remember, Denmark and Normay, their origin, also have coast areas with a lot humidity and salty air. This is the best condition to enforce corrosion. For me a minimum of 50% or more off, is acceptable.
It's their responsibilty to protect their products, not happened. Or to make restriction in their papers about climatic conditions, not happened.
Afaik this is not the first discussion about corrosin of SEAS magnesium drivers here.
Profit 1st, customer 2nd is not a good attitude.
Lots of success for the discussions with your sales channel
Günni
I agree. From what I know the OEM price is typically 1/3rd of the retail price we DIYers pay if we buy from someone like Madisound (just an example). So a $300 driver is typically sold to OEMs like Joesph Audio for about $100. So if they offer you a 25% discount ($75 on $300) they are still selling you the driver for $225 (about twice the OEM price for manufacturers). This is my understanding from my past when I was in Denmark (hint).
Meanwhile I have asked SEAS if there is some way they can recommend that would protect these lovely cones IF I was to get new cones.
"Thank you for your quick response.
I am comfortable using the SEAS Magnesium Cone Excel Drivers. I do not mind ordering a NEW set of drivers via my sales channel but I wonder if there is any protective coat I can apply to the NEW drivers to the cone to prevent this corrosion from happening again. I have done some preliminary research in this and talked to people who protect the Magnesium Alloy wheels of race cars and super cars and they suggest a ceramic coat.
I wonder if this ceramic coat will change the tone/timber of the Magnesium cone. The other alternate is a coat of liquid wax. I do not know what protection liquid wax can offer because when it comes to car polishing the wax is used more to improve the shine/gloss of the paint and some also offer some UV protection. Is there anything you can recommend?
If I cannot protect the Magnesium cone then the other alternate I have is to design another speaker using drivers that are more tolerant of the humid climate I live in."
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Thank you Günni. I wish you were working at SEAS
I know manufacturers can tell their sales channels to give any discount to a customer (much more than 25%). In this case SEAS is offering nothing to my sales channel. My sales channel is giving the 25% discount from their profit margin (which is nice but fully fair). I really wished SEAS had taken some responsibility but so be it. Those who are reading this thread are aware that if they ever have the same issue, they would have to rely on their sales channel alone and not SEAS. Meanwhile I got a very quick answer to my email (above) from SEAS (their response while typing this post)
"The coating on the cone is a very super-protective coating, that as a recipe has been improved over the years. It’s incredibly difficult to work out something even better. It’s an ongoing effort. A ceramic treatment of the cones was not successful. There is nothing you can do, but keep the speakers fairly dry (e.g. in air-conditioned room). For example we never have problems in America, and that includes e.g. Florida, maybe surprisingly, but it’s related to the quality of the air.
By the way, you mentioned that you’ve tried to brush off the white powder. Feel free to do a bit harder, without damaging the cone (the cone is stiff and fairly strong / not sensitive to the touch). I’d suggest you try to spray it with glass/window cleaner (e.g. “Windex” or similar) and wipe it off with a soft cloth. If the cone moves a bit (a few millimeter) while you press the cloth against the cone in local areas, that’s OK. That should get rid of some of the white powder and the result is hopefully visually more appealing to you for a while".
Yes, Denmark, Norway and maybe parts of Europe, US (South) and even countries like Australia have humid costal climates for some part of the year. In India the humidity is high (70-90%) from May to October and then falls below 50% from November to April. Wow just googled that 40% of the EU lives near the sea coast! Archive:Coastal regions - population statistics - Statistics Explained.
No this is NOT the first report of this corrosion either but like I assumed earlier, SEAS (and I assume others too) can care less for DIYers. Most of their product is sold to OEMs and we DIYers are a small niche market.
That said many DIYers do not have any trouble with SEAS drivers. For example jororaitchev from Sofia (Bulgaria) has had no problems (Sofia is however 400 km from the sea) DIY my dream come true and ...go!
Even if I redesign, if I want to retain the current boxes (since I have veneered them the same as my room) then I would still have to use SEAS drivers as the basket dimensions would match with the holes in the current cabinet.
The center speaker for example has book matched veneer to the wall behind it so it would be tough to find the same exact veneer.
If I can find the same exact veneer I can consider a whole new design not using SEAS drivers at all.
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I had SEAS send me a replacement Nextel driver directly but was done after Madisound contacted them (was a new driver). SEAS then communicated directly and organised the replacement. In the end the Nextel wasn't suitable so sold them.
I'd be very hesitant to use the same drivers again you can guarantee that the new ones would corrode. Dust and high humidity is a recipe for corrosion. I do vacuum and clean my drivers probably twice a year to reduce dust build up.
You could do different drivers and rework the existing enclosure and if the veneer is not available, use a contrasting veneer as can look very smart.
Me, I would clean the existing drivers as best you can and add speaker grilles so out of sight, out of mind. A lot easier than redesign and rebuild plus you don't have to use black grille cloth as other options are available such as where I bought mine.
Soundlabs Group: Acoustic Cloth
I use a Dove Grey to match the lighter timber veneers I use plus also matches sofa, rugs etc.
I'd be very hesitant to use the same drivers again you can guarantee that the new ones would corrode. Dust and high humidity is a recipe for corrosion. I do vacuum and clean my drivers probably twice a year to reduce dust build up.
You could do different drivers and rework the existing enclosure and if the veneer is not available, use a contrasting veneer as can look very smart.
Me, I would clean the existing drivers as best you can and add speaker grilles so out of sight, out of mind. A lot easier than redesign and rebuild plus you don't have to use black grille cloth as other options are available such as where I bought mine.
Soundlabs Group: Acoustic Cloth
I use a Dove Grey to match the lighter timber veneers I use plus also matches sofa, rugs etc.
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Thanks.
What was the challenge with Nextel. I am asking because it was on the top of my list for replacement options for the Magnesium drivers.
I received another email from SEAS yesterday.
"If you wish to try to apply a layer of wax to the cone, SEAS cannot take any responsibility for such an experiment, but maybe it’s worth trying (because it’s a water repellent)?… maybe some WD40 could do it (??). I’m just thinking out loud."
I have never dusted or vacuumed any speaker. I did not expect dust and humidity to be so devastating.
I do have a speaker grill. There are small 10mm NdFeB magnets below the veneer and on the frame of the speaker grill (I took care to make sure the poles were opposite). In fact this grill is so seldom removed that it was only when I removed the grill to show the construction (of the magnets) to a friend is when we noticed the corrosion.
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The Nextel W15LY001 is the only driver that beat me. I tried heaps of different crossovers (series and parallel) and couldn't find the sweet spot. That said, I did lend to speaker to a guy who loved them and was so impressed with the Nextel that he ended up building Troel's CNO-25. So one man's poison etc.... go figure. The driver had great mids and retrieved plenty of information but I felt there was something missing. Maybe the crossovers weren't up to the task and maybe didn't match the Scan Speak or SEAS tweeters I tried.
It's odd but I never had the same problem with Scan Speak, Vifa, Peerless or SB Acoustics drivers.
Humidity plus dust is a real problem. The best example I've seen is with steel roller doors. The vertical surfaces exposed to the weather doesn't readily rust but the top of the rolled up section gets a layer of dirt and dust and after a decade or so rusts through. The same happens to audio gear such as CD players and amps. I had an old Sony CD player that I had for over 2 decades and cleaned regularly and had no corrosion. I bought a same age unit off eBay which was dusty and yes, the case was corroded on the top surface but sides etc were fine. Humidity is one thing but dust just makes it worse and sets up a nasty environment.
"In fact this grill is so seldom removed that it was only when I removed the grill to show the construction (of the magnets) to a friend is when we noticed the corrosion."
Goes to show you shouldn't remove grilles.
It's odd but I never had the same problem with Scan Speak, Vifa, Peerless or SB Acoustics drivers.
Humidity plus dust is a real problem. The best example I've seen is with steel roller doors. The vertical surfaces exposed to the weather doesn't readily rust but the top of the rolled up section gets a layer of dirt and dust and after a decade or so rusts through. The same happens to audio gear such as CD players and amps. I had an old Sony CD player that I had for over 2 decades and cleaned regularly and had no corrosion. I bought a same age unit off eBay which was dusty and yes, the case was corroded on the top surface but sides etc were fine. Humidity is one thing but dust just makes it worse and sets up a nasty environment.
"In fact this grill is so seldom removed that it was only when I removed the grill to show the construction (of the magnets) to a friend is when we noticed the corrosion."
Goes to show you shouldn't remove grilles.
The Nextel W15LY001 is the only driver that beat me. I tried heaps of different crossovers (series and parallel) and couldn't find the sweet spot. That said, I did lend to speaker to a guy who loved them and was so impressed with the Nextel that he ended up building Troel's CNO-25. So one man's poison etc.... go figure. The driver had great mids and retrieved plenty of information but I felt there was something missing. Maybe the crossovers weren't up to the task and maybe didn't match the Scan Speak or SEAS tweeters I tried.
It's odd but I never had the same problem with Scan Speak, Vifa, Peerless or SB Acoustics drivers.
Humidity plus dust is a real problem. The best example I've seen is with steel roller doors. The vertical surfaces exposed to the weather doesn't readily rust but the top of the rolled up section gets a layer of dirt and dust and after a decade or so rusts through. The same happens to audio gear such as CD players and amps. I had an old Sony CD player that I had for over 2 decades and cleaned regularly and had no corrosion. I bought a same age unit off eBay which was dusty and yes, the case was corroded on the top surface but sides etc were fine. Humidity is one thing but dust just makes it worse and sets up a nasty environment.
"In fact this grill is so seldom removed that it was only when I removed the grill to show the construction (of the magnets) to a friend is when we noticed the corrosion."
Goes to show you shouldn't remove grilles.
If I want to retain the boxes I do have a choice between several SEAS woofers as they share the same chassis/basket dimensions.
I have several CD, DVD players, Amps etc and so far no real corrosion even after decades on the outside. And I assume these are all powder coated MS chassis.
So is there a way to get rid of the corrosion the corrosion on my Thors look terrible. We live 300 feet from the sea. very upsetting I would have to say that all the work of building and tuning the speakers the seas should be responding better and we are in Nova Scotia so the no problems in north America is ********. They are about 10 years old but I 30 year old speakers that still sound and look fine. I would never buy a Seas product again and would recommend boycotting them .