MTM Drivers- Audax 8" vs 6.5"...
Hello Gentleman,
I am slowly plodding along planning my HT speaker project. This forum has been very helpful.. As so many of you have suggested to other rookies-I will go with a proven design, and not rush to get in over my head the first time around..
Since many of the MTM designs seem to use two 6.5" mid-bass.. I would appreciate some feedback on the idea of using two 8" Audax AM210Z2's along with an appropriate tweeter-yet to be chosen. This appears to be a good quality driver, and should provide more bass than the 6.5" with slightly better efficiency.
I am looking to build high quality speakers that while not earth shattering, should easily beat anything remotely close to what I could afford to buy ..
My budget for the drivers and crossover components(subwoofer, 4 tweeters, 6 mid-bass) is around 3,200- 3700 Cdn.. and I certainly cannot afford to do this again.. so I want to avoid the major pitfalls now....
I have a Vifa-based pair for use as the rear surrounds
Looking for feedback/suggestions...
Thanks,
Bruce
Hello Gentleman,
I am slowly plodding along planning my HT speaker project. This forum has been very helpful.. As so many of you have suggested to other rookies-I will go with a proven design, and not rush to get in over my head the first time around..
Since many of the MTM designs seem to use two 6.5" mid-bass.. I would appreciate some feedback on the idea of using two 8" Audax AM210Z2's along with an appropriate tweeter-yet to be chosen. This appears to be a good quality driver, and should provide more bass than the 6.5" with slightly better efficiency.
I am looking to build high quality speakers that while not earth shattering, should easily beat anything remotely close to what I could afford to buy ..
My budget for the drivers and crossover components(subwoofer, 4 tweeters, 6 mid-bass) is around 3,200- 3700 Cdn.. and I certainly cannot afford to do this again.. so I want to avoid the major pitfalls now....
I have a Vifa-based pair for use as the rear surrounds
Looking for feedback/suggestions...
Thanks,
Bruce
This is just my personal opinion :
MTM's have larger dispersion issues at crossover than MT's,
due to having 3 interacting drivers as opposed to two.
The larger the mid/bass units the larger the problem as unit
spacing becomes larger.
One way round this is a 2.5way. Ther disadavantage of a
2.5 way is that it forces you to implement full 6dB beffle
step compensation.
With an MTM 2 way the level of baffle step compensation can
be chosen, full, some or none at all (I don't reccomend none).
I'm confused as to the following :
Why do you want more bass if you are using a subwoofer ?
How do you arrive at 4 tweeters and 6 bass units ?
What proven design do you have in mind ?
sreten.
MTM's have larger dispersion issues at crossover than MT's,
due to having 3 interacting drivers as opposed to two.
The larger the mid/bass units the larger the problem as unit
spacing becomes larger.
One way round this is a 2.5way. Ther disadavantage of a
2.5 way is that it forces you to implement full 6dB beffle
step compensation.
With an MTM 2 way the level of baffle step compensation can
be chosen, full, some or none at all (I don't reccomend none).
I'm confused as to the following :
Why do you want more bass if you are using a subwoofer ?
How do you arrive at 4 tweeters and 6 bass units ?
What proven design do you have in mind ?
sreten.
I just picked up some HM170Z0. (6.5" aerogel) Was a little
disappointed with the top end extension...I would say 3kHz is the absolute maximum which means you should be crossing no higher than high order ~2.5kHz, and that isn't ideal. 8" should be even worse. Hard to find a tweeter that goes that low happily.
All of these aerogels are of course slightly different but based on my measurements of its cousin and the published response, it looks iffy.
disappointed with the top end extension...I would say 3kHz is the absolute maximum which means you should be crossing no higher than high order ~2.5kHz, and that isn't ideal. 8" should be even worse. Hard to find a tweeter that goes that low happily.
All of these aerogels are of course slightly different but based on my measurements of its cousin and the published response, it looks iffy.
Attachments
Driver Choices.. MTM's
Thanks for the help...
As was suggested, I will lose the 8" plan, and stick with what has been shown to work time and again ..6.5".. From my end of it, I am considering the following 6.5"/7" drivers:
1. Audax AM170Z2 shielded
2. Focal 6W4311B shielded
3. Scan Speak 18S-8531G00 (7" slit-cone ) shielded
The first two are close in price, while the Scan Speak is $297.88 Cdn each... about 40% more than the other two ..
From what I have read, all of the above are considered good quality drivers... I am not sure of the Scan-Speak is worth the money.. I need 6 (2 each for the front three speakers)..
And no, I just need 3 tweeters, sorry, fumble fingers keyboarding
I am willing to pay for the Scan -Speaks, but am uncertain if this is a wise place to spend the extra money...
Again, I am looking for advice here
Thanks,
Bruce
Thanks for the help...
As was suggested, I will lose the 8" plan, and stick with what has been shown to work time and again ..6.5".. From my end of it, I am considering the following 6.5"/7" drivers:
1. Audax AM170Z2 shielded
2. Focal 6W4311B shielded
3. Scan Speak 18S-8531G00 (7" slit-cone ) shielded
The first two are close in price, while the Scan Speak is $297.88 Cdn each... about 40% more than the other two ..
From what I have read, all of the above are considered good quality drivers... I am not sure of the Scan-Speak is worth the money.. I need 6 (2 each for the front three speakers)..
And no, I just need 3 tweeters, sorry, fumble fingers keyboarding
I am willing to pay for the Scan -Speaks, but am uncertain if this is a wise place to spend the extra money...
Again, I am looking for advice here
Thanks,
Bruce
You said "go with a proven design".
IMO the Focal and especially the Scanspeak are more suited
to critical music listening than HT, i.e. the resulting speakers
would need some serious amplication.
Without measuring equipment the major pitfall is
not copying a published and measured design.
sreten.
IMO the Focal and especially the Scanspeak are more suited
to critical music listening than HT, i.e. the resulting speakers
would need some serious amplication.
Without measuring equipment the major pitfall is
not copying a published and measured design.
sreten.
Listening Tastes.. HT, etc
I should have clarified..- I truly am a rookie
The speakers will be used for probably 60 % HT, 40 % music-which ranges from primarily classical to the occasional rock n roll/jazz listening session..
The amplifier power part I have not approached yet... I do not listen at very high SPL levels anymore.. I have done the damage to my hearing already, from the foolishness of youth..
From what I read, the Scan-Speak and Focal drivers seem to be considered top quality.. that is the primary reason I considered them..
I cannot say I listen critically for long periods to music-at this point I do not, but having said that, I do not want to limit the quality of the system based on my present usage...
Please keep the comments coming Sreten, I appreciate your help..
Bruce
I should have clarified..- I truly am a rookie
The speakers will be used for probably 60 % HT, 40 % music-which ranges from primarily classical to the occasional rock n roll/jazz listening session..
The amplifier power part I have not approached yet... I do not listen at very high SPL levels anymore.. I have done the damage to my hearing already, from the foolishness of youth..
From what I read, the Scan-Speak and Focal drivers seem to be considered top quality.. that is the primary reason I considered them..
I cannot say I listen critically for long periods to music-at this point I do not, but having said that, I do not want to limit the quality of the system based on my present usage...
Please keep the comments coming Sreten, I appreciate your help..
Bruce
Try this :
http://www.madisound.com/audaxhometheater.html
get some ideas here :
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/homeaudio.html
First time around its better go for good rather than the best.
sreten.
http://www.madisound.com/audaxhometheater.html
get some ideas here :
http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/homeaudio.html
First time around its better go for good rather than the best.
sreten.
Re: MTM Drivers- Audax 8" vs 6.5"...
Also, you have a pretty good sized budget. If I had this budget, I would not be looking at 5 bookshelf & 1 subwoofer using high end drivers. I would start looking at 5.0 or or 5.2 designs using less pricey drivers. Either 5 full rangers with deep bass and no subwoofer, or stereo subwoofers on the fronts.
HTRookie said:
sreten said:
Also, you have a pretty good sized budget. If I had this budget, I would not be looking at 5 bookshelf & 1 subwoofer using high end drivers. I would start looking at 5.0 or or 5.2 designs using less pricey drivers. Either 5 full rangers with deep bass and no subwoofer, or stereo subwoofers on the fronts.
Driver's Cont'd.
Also,
The room these are going into is approx. 13'4" x 19'8"... I DO have room for larger floorstanding speakers... and these are what I plan to build for the fronts (except for centre channel of course).. I am not necessarily committed to the subwoofer idea-after reading so many commenct about bass response, and the rolloff of mid-bass drivers, I expected that a sub-woofer is pretty much a necessity for good low bass response.
If the Scan-Speaks are a more difficult driver to work with- and I freely admit I intend on having an experienced local shop design and build the X-overs for me, is it therefore prudent to use a lower cost (lower quality?) driver such as the Vifa PJ17's, Audax model I mentioned before, or even perhaps the Hi-Vi F6, and put the rest of the money towards amplifiers,etc? In the old days I had a pair of JBL L-71 Veronas... I really liked them then.. My wife and I enjoy movies, hence the HT project..
Over to you
Also,
The room these are going into is approx. 13'4" x 19'8"... I DO have room for larger floorstanding speakers... and these are what I plan to build for the fronts (except for centre channel of course).. I am not necessarily committed to the subwoofer idea-after reading so many commenct about bass response, and the rolloff of mid-bass drivers, I expected that a sub-woofer is pretty much a necessity for good low bass response.
If the Scan-Speaks are a more difficult driver to work with- and I freely admit I intend on having an experienced local shop design and build the X-overs for me, is it therefore prudent to use a lower cost (lower quality?) driver such as the Vifa PJ17's, Audax model I mentioned before, or even perhaps the Hi-Vi F6, and put the rest of the money towards amplifiers,etc? In the old days I had a pair of JBL L-71 Veronas... I really liked them then.. My wife and I enjoy movies, hence the HT project..
Over to you
By all means goto a larger box if you can - if someone is doing the xovers for you then go with 'high tech' drivers.
Personally i wouldnt go for the Vifa p17 (it's alright but just nothing special)
The Scans are very good but very expensive for what they are.
I would also check out PHL & Eton, I think they are some of the best around.
Remember garbage in garbage out - look at the source!
Personally i wouldnt go for the Vifa p17 (it's alright but just nothing special)
The Scans are very good but very expensive for what they are.
I would also check out PHL & Eton, I think they are some of the best around.
Remember garbage in garbage out - look at the source!
Re: Driver's Cont'd.
Just keep it in mind that some full range designs don't need a sub. If you built 5 Adire vented KIT281's, you would probably be satisfied.
You can find DIY designs here and on the net that would likely blow the doors off of a "local shop". And use the money you save in buying better drivers.
With your budget, don't buy the cheaper sub plate amps. The nicer ones with a 4th order xover like Hypex are nice because you can choose between the (typically) 2nd order in your receiver and the 4th order to integrate the main speakers better. Or the ones with adjustable boost are nice too.
HTRookie said:
Just keep it in mind that some full range designs don't need a sub. If you built 5 Adire vented KIT281's, you would probably be satisfied.
HTRookie said:
You can find DIY designs here and on the net that would likely blow the doors off of a "local shop". And use the money you save in buying better drivers.
HTRookie said:
With your budget, don't buy the cheaper sub plate amps. The nicer ones with a 4th order xover like Hypex are nice because you can choose between the (typically) 2nd order in your receiver and the 4th order to integrate the main speakers better. Or the ones with adjustable boost are nice too.
Floorstanders-No Subwoofer??
Ok then...
I am not looking to shake down my house with bass of course, so are saying that by designing for a larger box volume, choosing the right drivers ,and tuning to a lower frequency, I will likely find the bass response of the front speakers perfectly good, and that a subwoofer may be superfluous??
I certainly appreciate the almost infinite number of approaches you can use for a project like mine... As sreten and so many others of you have said, do not get in over your head first time around- I am well-aware of my very limited knowledge here.. At the same time, I am prepared to do my homework... and do not want to be disappointed in the sound quality of the finished product..
I am trying to narrow down the mid-bass drivers: Fostex FW187, Audax AM170Z2, HI-Vi F6, and Focal 6W4311B are in the running.. They are priced more reasonably than the Scan-Speaks-which are very expensive here in Canada. All of the above drivers seem to be well thought of.. Floorstanding MTM configuration for the L & R, horizontal bookshelf for the centre...I have a well-equipped workshop, and can build nice cabinets.. I will consider (with the help of those of you willing) to attempt to build my own crossovers. Have never done that before ...
leadbelly, sreten, and others, I DO appreciate your assistance ...
Thanks, Bruce.
Ok then...
I am not looking to shake down my house with bass of course, so are saying that by designing for a larger box volume, choosing the right drivers ,and tuning to a lower frequency, I will likely find the bass response of the front speakers perfectly good, and that a subwoofer may be superfluous??
I certainly appreciate the almost infinite number of approaches you can use for a project like mine... As sreten and so many others of you have said, do not get in over your head first time around- I am well-aware of my very limited knowledge here.. At the same time, I am prepared to do my homework... and do not want to be disappointed in the sound quality of the finished product..
I am trying to narrow down the mid-bass drivers: Fostex FW187, Audax AM170Z2, HI-Vi F6, and Focal 6W4311B are in the running.. They are priced more reasonably than the Scan-Speaks-which are very expensive here in Canada. All of the above drivers seem to be well thought of.. Floorstanding MTM configuration for the L & R, horizontal bookshelf for the centre...I have a well-equipped workshop, and can build nice cabinets.. I will consider (with the help of those of you willing
) to attempt to build my own crossovers. Have never done that before ...leadbelly, sreten, and others, I DO appreciate your assistance ...
Thanks, Bruce.
Re: Floorstanders-No Subwoofer??
No, actually. I gave a specific example of a passive speaker design known for its bass output and said if 5 were used. If only 2 were used on the fronts, I doubt you would be satisfied. There is a lot of low frequency content put in movies, and you need to move a lot of air to do it justice.
HTRookie said:
No, actually. I gave a specific example of a passive speaker design known for its bass output and said if 5 were used. If only 2 were used on the fronts, I doubt you would be satisfied. There is a lot of low frequency content put in movies, and you need to move a lot of air to do it justice.
For the budget you mentioned, you might want to consider using the Fostex FW167 midbass (7"), which has a very smooth off-axis response, which is excellent for Home Theatre, and also quite desireable for music. That driver also has a very wide frequency range, allowing you to go for a simple crossover (baffle step compensation, zobel network for tweeter, and 2nd order high-pass for tweeter). If you want to save a few bucks, you might want to move the baffle step compensation into an active box (some USD 10-25 for all channels).
For tweeter, I would probably at least consider the Vifa XT25, which is robust, and has a wide frequency response with a low resonance frequency. It is also detailed and natural, judging by reviews of speakers based on it.
If the subwoofer is to be crossed over at a somewhat higher frequency, Fostex also has a smaller midwoofer (4.5").
For tweeter, I would probably at least consider the Vifa XT25, which is robust, and has a wide frequency response with a low resonance frequency. It is also detailed and natural, judging by reviews of speakers based on it.
If the subwoofer is to be crossed over at a somewhat higher frequency, Fostex also has a smaller midwoofer (4.5").
I can't comment on the Fostex - but the Vifa xt25 does require high level skill in xover design, in part due to its high Qms, even though it has low fs - doesnt mean it it's easy.
For HT the centre is the most important speaker receiviong about 70% of the signal, and if possible it should be a 3way.
I would advise looking around on the web for a proven DIY design that fits your budget - randomly picking drivers which look good is not going to give you a good design.
You must look at the speaker as a system,
bass-driver/box/tweeter/xover - they all must be selected to work together.
For HT the centre is the most important speaker receiviong about 70% of the signal, and if possible it should be a 3way.
I would advise looking around on the web for a proven DIY design that fits your budget - randomly picking drivers which look good is not going to give you a good design.
You must look at the speaker as a system,
bass-driver/box/tweeter/xover - they all must be selected to work together.
A 6.5/7" driver I can recommend is the Peerless CSX 850122. The response is from 38Hz to 5kHz, 8ohm, sensitivity is 86.5dB/W/m, the other stats I can't remember. What really strikes me about these drivers is their ability to reproduce very deep bass accurately and warmly. The response is prety flat to 3kHz, then peaks about 3dB to 4.5kHz, then rolls off after that. Virtually no weird cone breakup resonances. I can't imagine why anyone would want to use $150 Scan-Speaks when these are $40 each and have better performance. If you use these in an MTM arrangement, you won't need a sub.
Narrowing down the choices..
Hello again,
Many thanks to sreten, leadbelly and others for your help and patience..
Many of the full-range projects seem to get good/very good reviews, notably using Fostex drivers.. Since I am planning to use floor standing speakers for the left/right fronts, would it be a workable approach to use an exisiting Fostex full-range horn design for these (with a tweeter, as many have done), a proven existing 3 way centre channel design, and use a sub for the low end?? Is it unwise to mix different designs for the front three speakers, due to possible/likely tonal mismatching? I read Leadbelly's post about using full ranges -if he could do his HT system again.. Lord, there are so many options.. I am committed to an existing plan.. (I have no illusions about playing speaker designer here).
Am I being a typical rookie again, and should just shut up and pick a proven MTM design and build the damn thing, or is there any merit in a fullrange approach for HT??
Thanks as always,,
Bruce....
Hello again,
Many thanks to sreten, leadbelly and others for your help and patience..
Many of the full-range projects seem to get good/very good reviews, notably using Fostex drivers.. Since I am planning to use floor standing speakers for the left/right fronts, would it be a workable approach to use an exisiting Fostex full-range horn design for these (with a tweeter, as many have done), a proven existing 3 way centre channel design, and use a sub for the low end?? Is it unwise to mix different designs for the front three speakers, due to possible/likely tonal mismatching? I read Leadbelly's post about using full ranges -if he could do his HT system again.. Lord, there are so many options.. I am committed to an existing plan.. (I have no illusions about playing speaker designer here).
Am I being a typical rookie again, and should just shut up and pick a proven MTM design and build the damn thing, or is there any merit in a fullrange approach for HT??
Thanks as always,,
Bruce....
Re: Narrowing down the choices..
Glad to see you are still around
Actually, you probably read too much into this. I was just trying to get you to look outside the box. There is a point where you have spent so much hopping up the Taurus that you say "What an idiot, I should have bought the Mustang!"
That's really the point I was trying to make, not just steering you to fullranges specifically. Pick a speaker that appeals to you. But consider the bigger picture, think things like: That receiver is 7.2, so I can run stereo subs which will be great for music. That receiver is 5.1, but I have enough money in my budget for 2 quality sub amps, so I can just use the sub crossovers instead. Do I really need the center channel?
If you search on this forum, you'll see that members are running every permutation and combination...4, 5, 6, 7 speakers; 0, 1, 2 subs, etc.
Glad to see you are still around
HTRookie said:
Actually, you probably read too much into this. I was just trying to get you to look outside the box. There is a point where you have spent so much hopping up the Taurus that you say "What an idiot, I should have bought the Mustang!"
That's really the point I was trying to make, not just steering you to fullranges specifically. Pick a speaker that appeals to you. But consider the bigger picture, think things like: That receiver is 7.2, so I can run stereo subs which will be great for music. That receiver is 5.1, but I have enough money in my budget for 2 quality sub amps, so I can just use the sub crossovers instead. Do I really need the center channel?
If you search on this forum, you'll see that members are running every permutation and combination...4, 5, 6, 7 speakers; 0, 1, 2 subs, etc.
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