Hello,
I want to build speakers for my livingroom (22sqm), 2 way with horn tweeters and 15 inch bass drivers in vented cabinet. I am not very new to diy but still newbie. As usual the budget will be tight
For tweeter I narrowed my choices to: B&C DE250 or Beyma CP380M, the Beyma looks very nice in specs and graph response curve, the B&C I already use and is a nice driver.
For horn I narrowed my choices to: 18Sound XT1086 or RCF H100.
For crossover I would like from Beyma: FD-212 (freq. 1.2khz) or FD-250 (freq. 2khz).
For the 15 inch bass driver I am not sure what to look for, maximum budget is 150 usd / driver. in WinISD simulation looks nice a Beyma 15MI100 ! with a 60 litres volume would be nice ...
I am not interested in low bass response (below 80Hz) I like to hear clear drums , precise and short punch, speed response, in 120-250Hz area probably. I am listening to rock / heavy metal music in 80% of the time.
Now, the above listed items make sense together? in which pairs? Some ideas for the 15 inch driver? Recommended volume for the enclosure?
I prefer products from Beyma if possible, cause I can get a discount from local importer and also seems to me like a serious brand.
Thank you very much for your time!
I want to build speakers for my livingroom (22sqm), 2 way with horn tweeters and 15 inch bass drivers in vented cabinet. I am not very new to diy but still newbie. As usual the budget will be tight
For tweeter I narrowed my choices to: B&C DE250 or Beyma CP380M, the Beyma looks very nice in specs and graph response curve, the B&C I already use and is a nice driver.
For horn I narrowed my choices to: 18Sound XT1086 or RCF H100.
For crossover I would like from Beyma: FD-212 (freq. 1.2khz) or FD-250 (freq. 2khz).
For the 15 inch bass driver I am not sure what to look for, maximum budget is 150 usd / driver. in WinISD simulation looks nice a Beyma 15MI100 ! with a 60 litres volume would be nice ...
I am not interested in low bass response (below 80Hz) I like to hear clear drums , precise and short punch, speed response, in 120-250Hz area probably. I am listening to rock / heavy metal music in 80% of the time.
Now, the above listed items make sense together? in which pairs? Some ideas for the 15 inch driver? Recommended volume for the enclosure?
I prefer products from Beyma if possible, cause I can get a discount from local importer and also seems to me like a serious brand.
Thank you very much for your time!
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Coming from another metalhead, you're missing out if your bass response doesn't cover down to 40hz. At least consider separate subs. http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/principles_of_multitrack_mixing_the_kick_drum_bass_relationship/P1/
I agree with face, if you can get the lows, why not. However, you need to consider any high rolloff with a 15" and the low rolloff of the horn. They have to match, somewhat, or you'll get a hole in the spectrum. Check out the eWave thread. A lot of work has been done to design a speaker you are thinking about.
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Zilch's AK Design Collaborative - Econowave Speaker | Audiokarma Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
One good path is to copy a Beyma Engineered 2-way speaker.
If you Google "Beyma Enclosure Designs" you will find a few two way designs which use a 15" woofer with a 1.4" compression driver and the TD-385 horn. Several passive crossovers like the FP-12B12 are also described. A 1.4" compression driver+horn supports the 800Hz - 900Hz crossover frequency required for a smooth polar match to a 15" woofer.
Beyma Enclosure Designs 2009
Beyma Enclosure Designs 2008
------------------
The XT1086 horn is a 1" design which performs best with a 1200-1600Hz crossover commonly used with 12" and 10" woofers. The XT1086 is optimized for the 27-degree exit angle of 18Sound 1" compression drivers. If you favor the coverage pattern of the XT1086 with a 1" compression driver, it is best to select a 10" or 12" midbass. For powerful deep bass, a real-woofer can be added as a 3-way fullrange speaker.
The beyma CP380M 1" compression driver gets great reviews, and would perform well with the XT1086 with a 1200Hz crossover to a 12" or 10" midbass. You will find designs on the AVS Forum as part of the Econowave investment. The crossover circuit for the compression driver and horn is much more complicated than the woofer crossover circuit.
If you Google "Beyma Enclosure Designs" you will find a few two way designs which use a 15" woofer with a 1.4" compression driver and the TD-385 horn. Several passive crossovers like the FP-12B12 are also described. A 1.4" compression driver+horn supports the 800Hz - 900Hz crossover frequency required for a smooth polar match to a 15" woofer.
Beyma Enclosure Designs 2009
Beyma Enclosure Designs 2008
------------------
The XT1086 horn is a 1" design which performs best with a 1200-1600Hz crossover commonly used with 12" and 10" woofers. The XT1086 is optimized for the 27-degree exit angle of 18Sound 1" compression drivers. If you favor the coverage pattern of the XT1086 with a 1" compression driver, it is best to select a 10" or 12" midbass. For powerful deep bass, a real-woofer can be added as a 3-way fullrange speaker.
The beyma CP380M 1" compression driver gets great reviews, and would perform well with the XT1086 with a 1200Hz crossover to a 12" or 10" midbass. You will find designs on the AVS Forum as part of the Econowave investment. The crossover circuit for the compression driver and horn is much more complicated than the woofer crossover circuit.
Thank you for your advices ...
I dont have a dedicated room for listening, is just my living room with a nasty problem in 60-80Hz room response, boomy, voomy and ugly, I absolutely hate it. I have had about 8 different hi-fi loudspeaker with bass response starting from 30Hz to 40Hz, various models, various brands. None could sound OK in my room. WAF is absolute zero, to make some room tunning, no chance!
One year ago I made myself loudspeakers from PA components, incl horns and one 12" drivers. First attempt was with only one 12" , very nice sound , not boomy, excelent drums reproductions, nothing like hi-fi speakers I ever owned. Really nice surprise. Than I wanted more, so I added a second 12" (the cabinet was enough for 2 x 12") and the spark, the wonder was gone! the fantastic precision of a single driver was lost, yes was more bass but not the one I wanted ... they are going again too low and again showup that room boomy bass ...
So, I want to do it again, diy speakers, but with one (and only one) 15" mid-bass, hoping to find again that nice precision and tight bass. I learn on the hard way that no multiple drivers will be like one big driver. Also previous diy speakers did not go down to 40Hz but I did not feel like I was really losing something!
No hi-fi speakers up to 4000 USD / pair sounded so well (for me) as my first diy speakers, total cost arround 1200 USD. So my way will be diy way ...
Some ideas for a budget friendly 15" mid-bass up to 1.2khz ? Cabinet arround 70 litres, as I am interested not in 40Hz, but in tight, punch, speed bass for drums sound ... I dont want a subwoofer in this project. If really neccessary , will be added later as separate subwoofers ...
For the highs I am thinking to go with Beyma SMC-65 and Beyma TD-385.
But I feel that Beyma might not be a good choice for the 15" bass, I don't know why.
So what choices I might have in 150-170 USD / 15" driver for a precise, tight, speed and clear bass (100-250Hz)?
Thank you!
I dont have a dedicated room for listening, is just my living room with a nasty problem in 60-80Hz room response, boomy, voomy and ugly, I absolutely hate it. I have had about 8 different hi-fi loudspeaker with bass response starting from 30Hz to 40Hz, various models, various brands. None could sound OK in my room. WAF is absolute zero, to make some room tunning, no chance!
One year ago I made myself loudspeakers from PA components, incl horns and one 12" drivers. First attempt was with only one 12" , very nice sound , not boomy, excelent drums reproductions, nothing like hi-fi speakers I ever owned. Really nice surprise. Than I wanted more, so I added a second 12" (the cabinet was enough for 2 x 12") and the spark, the wonder was gone!
the fantastic precision of a single driver was lost, yes was more bass but not the one I wanted ... they are going again too low and again showup that room boomy bass ...So, I want to do it again, diy speakers, but with one (and only one) 15" mid-bass, hoping to find again that nice precision and tight bass. I learn on the hard way that no multiple drivers will be like one big driver. Also previous diy speakers did not go down to 40Hz but I did not feel like I was really losing something!
No hi-fi speakers up to 4000 USD / pair sounded so well (for me) as my first diy speakers, total cost arround 1200 USD. So my way will be diy way ...
Some ideas for a budget friendly 15" mid-bass up to 1.2khz ? Cabinet arround 70 litres, as I am interested not in 40Hz, but in tight, punch, speed bass for drums sound ... I dont want a subwoofer in this project. If really neccessary , will be added later as separate subwoofers ...
For the highs I am thinking to go with Beyma SMC-65 and Beyma TD-385.
But I feel that Beyma might not be a good choice for the 15" bass, I don't know why.
So what choices I might have in 150-170 USD / 15" driver for a precise, tight, speed and clear bass (100-250Hz)?
Thank you!
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This project, with a 15LX60V2 woofer and a CD10Nd driver + SEOS15 waveguide combo, should be right up your alley:
attitube: Beta- The ‘White Noise’ SEOS15 – constant directivity horn adventures
I have the CD10Nd on a SEOS12 (also available cheaply as Denovo from Parts Express) and it is a great compression driver. The exit angle is more or less the same as the DE250, which the SEOS was designed for, so a good match also in that respect. You can see from the linked page that the frequency response with the CD10Nd is nice and smooth and that's also how I would describe the sound from it.
attitube: Beta- The ‘White Noise’ SEOS15 – constant directivity horn adventures
I have the CD10Nd on a SEOS12 (also available cheaply as Denovo from Parts Express) and it is a great compression driver. The exit angle is more or less the same as the DE250, which the SEOS was designed for, so a good match also in that respect. You can see from the linked page that the frequency response with the CD10Nd is nice and smooth and that's also how I would describe the sound from it.
The problem with the bass is that anything that goes low enough to excite the resonance will excite it, giving problems.
A room here has a 10dB peak at 40Hz. Makes bookshelf speakers sound huge, and subs sound awful. The fix is simple enough - measure the bass response and knock the peaks down.
A 15" two-way won't fix your bass. It'd be fun for a variety of other reasons, though.
If it was mine, I'd take out some of the budget and get a MiniDSP (or similar, whatever works in your system) and a measurement mic. You can probably get the lot for the cost of one 15" woofer.
It really is the only way to make sure you're doing things right. If you listen, you might pick up on a peak in the treble, but do you know its a 7.2kHz peak that's 5dB high and has a Q-factor of 4?
I'd take a setup with cheaper drivers done with measurements and EQ over a slightly more expensive set of drivers thrown together blind.
Chris
A room here has a 10dB peak at 40Hz. Makes bookshelf speakers sound huge, and subs sound awful. The fix is simple enough - measure the bass response and knock the peaks down.
A 15" two-way won't fix your bass. It'd be fun for a variety of other reasons, though.
If it was mine, I'd take out some of the budget and get a MiniDSP (or similar, whatever works in your system) and a measurement mic. You can probably get the lot for the cost of one 15" woofer.
It really is the only way to make sure you're doing things right. If you listen, you might pick up on a peak in the treble, but do you know its a 7.2kHz peak that's 5dB high and has a Q-factor of 4?
I'd take a setup with cheaper drivers done with measurements and EQ over a slightly more expensive set of drivers thrown together blind.
Chris
Very nice project on attitube ... would be a good match between Seos15 and Beyma CP380M !?
I was also wondering about sealed enclosure ... except low FS what other parameters are needed to choose a 15 inch driver ?
I read these days hundreds of threads on diy and avs forums, my mind is boiling ... and a new ideea is coming, to avoid passive crossovers.
So, please tell me if I am crazy when considering:
- to build the speakers with horns and 15 inch driver, 2 way, without any crossover;
- to get the signal (pre-out) from my Yamaha AV Receiver to an active crossover like DBX 223XS, to adjust crossover parameters and gains per lows and highs ...;
- and to get 2 power amplifiers like Yamaha P2500S in order to amplify the lows and highs ....
From what I read up to now, the solution to let the amp go directly to the driver (without other passive elements) gives amazing dinamics and control. Also the active crossover is full with controls, to change/trim and adapt the signals for highs and lows.
Does anyone tried or have such a system? Of course for home audio ...
I was also wondering about sealed enclosure ... except low FS what other parameters are needed to choose a 15 inch driver ?
I read these days hundreds of threads on diy and avs forums, my mind is boiling ... and a new ideea is coming, to avoid passive crossovers.
So, please tell me if I am crazy when considering:
- to build the speakers with horns and 15 inch driver, 2 way, without any crossover;
- to get the signal (pre-out) from my Yamaha AV Receiver to an active crossover like DBX 223XS, to adjust crossover parameters and gains per lows and highs ...;
- and to get 2 power amplifiers like Yamaha P2500S in order to amplify the lows and highs ....
From what I read up to now, the solution to let the amp go directly to the driver (without other passive elements) gives amazing dinamics and control. Also the active crossover is full with controls, to change/trim and adapt the signals for highs and lows.
Does anyone tried or have such a system? Of course for home audio ...
Going active is an excellent idea if are prepared to do it!
However instead of that DBX filter, you should consider this for about the same money:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd?gclid=CMDlqtqmjs8CFewp0wodHYsLlA
The major advantage with the miniDSP over the DBX is that you also get EQ functionality. You can even do Auto EQ if you also have a microphone and the free software Room EQ Wizard (REW). Highly recommend especially with a compression driver that has typically has a bit more falling response than you want, so you can correct that with EQ. You also need this for what's called the baffle step (google it).
You could also consider a much smaller and cheaper amplifier for the compression driver if you active since its sensitivity is so much higher and will play plenty loud with just a few watts. You could for example check out some DIY designs based on the TPA3116 on this forum or eBay.
I don't know the exit angle of the CP380M (the CD10Nd and CD10Fe are 17 degrees, the SEOS waveguide is made for the B&C DE250 which exit angle is 14.6 degrees) but I would suspect that this would work just fine and you'll be delighted with the result.
Your best woofer bet from the Beyma stable (where you have a discount) with this combo is the 15P80Nd or the 15P80Fe, especially if you can EQ the bottom end a bit (since such low Qts woofers). If you are going to use a separate subwoofer, I'd go sealed, otherwise vented with about 40Hz tune. Even without a subwoofer, you could go sealed if you use two woofers per side and brute-force EQ the low-end. The Xmech on these beasts mean very little chance of damaging them doing this.
However instead of that DBX filter, you should consider this for about the same money:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/minidsp-in-a-box/minidsp-2x4-hd?gclid=CMDlqtqmjs8CFewp0wodHYsLlA
The major advantage with the miniDSP over the DBX is that you also get EQ functionality. You can even do Auto EQ if you also have a microphone and the free software Room EQ Wizard (REW). Highly recommend especially with a compression driver that has typically has a bit more falling response than you want, so you can correct that with EQ. You also need this for what's called the baffle step (google it).
You could also consider a much smaller and cheaper amplifier for the compression driver if you active since its sensitivity is so much higher and will play plenty loud with just a few watts. You could for example check out some DIY designs based on the TPA3116 on this forum or eBay.
I don't know the exit angle of the CP380M (the CD10Nd and CD10Fe are 17 degrees, the SEOS waveguide is made for the B&C DE250 which exit angle is 14.6 degrees) but I would suspect that this would work just fine and you'll be delighted with the result.
Your best woofer bet from the Beyma stable (where you have a discount) with this combo is the 15P80Nd or the 15P80Fe, especially if you can EQ the bottom end a bit (since such low Qts woofers). If you are going to use a separate subwoofer, I'd go sealed, otherwise vented with about 40Hz tune. Even without a subwoofer, you could go sealed if you use two woofers per side and brute-force EQ the low-end. The Xmech on these beasts mean very little chance of damaging them doing this.
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Wow! Can't believe what I am reading about that miniDSP ... !? never heard about it ... so, not only DSP & EQ but also I can play music from my PC directly into it !? no need of other equipment! this is huge ... seems in Germany is the closest distributor, ofcourse big european prices but this is the situation.
Regarding the 15 inch for vented cabinet solution, in my WinISD simulation the Beyma 15MI100 looks really nice, to me! Am I wrong?
Regarding the 15 inch for vented cabinet solution, in my WinISD simulation the Beyma 15MI100 looks really nice, to me! Am I wrong?
Another vote here for doing dsp eq to fix the room problem. I have a living room with terrible peaks in the low bass. Added a 2x4hd and eq'd, now the bass is extremely good. And I got remote volume control from the 2x4hd as well.
If I were you, I'd do the dsp before any change to the speakers you already have. It might be all you need.
If I were you, I'd do the dsp before any change to the speakers you already have. It might be all you need.
Yes that's the purpose of the thing. MiniDSP is a nice solution but don't expect to much on quality side: it's ok for most peoples but it can't stand comparison with more pricey units (read professional filtering solution: D/A mostly are not the best you can find in my point of view and no external wordclock input for better digital sync).
The unit i've seen don't have analog volume control after the DAs and i don't like the digital attenuation solution (but that's me, most here seems to don't care about...).
My Yamaha AV Receiver does have a nice Parametric EQ, that I can use before pre-outs ... so the DBX223XS as active crossovers still might be a solution.
Unfortunately the AV Receiver does not have Power Inputs so I can return with output DBX signal to use his power amps (4 of 7 amps), so I must find an affordale solution for a 4 channel power amp ... as said my budget is low
Unfortunately the AV Receiver does not have Power Inputs so I can return with output DBX signal to use his power amps (4 of 7 amps), so I must find an affordale solution for a 4 channel power amp ... as said my budget is low
Yes, is something arround 60-70Hz , but it does not solve too much ... when I had only one 12 inch driver sound was OK, but when I have add the second 12 inch the problem come back like with the Hi-Fi loudspeakers i had before. I tried several freq, various Q, etc. but no real good result.
I have to come back to only one bass driver, after I heard how precise it can sing. Those first speakers with only one 12 inch have arround 80Hz at -3dB and it was so good for me. Let it be only one but 15 inch I thought!
I have to come back to only one bass driver, after I heard how precise it can sing. Those first speakers with only one 12 inch have arround 80Hz at -3dB and it was so good for me. Let it be only one but 15 inch I thought!
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