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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

10" woof plus single capped morel cat378
10" woof plus single capped morel cat378
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Old 4th September 2016, 07:30 PM   #21
norman bates is offline norman bates  United States
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Yea, I'm just itching to try something different.
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Old 6th September 2016, 02:40 AM   #22
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I think it's a fun idea to try.

I was reading about the Zu Druid V speaker, based on a modified Eminence B102 and a ASD 1001 compression driver.
6moons audioreviews: Zu Druid V

It's obviously a very revealing driver with low mechanical loss. Some dispersion issues, I'd guess, but what have you got to lose? FWIW, 3khz notch often works well with 10".
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Old 6th September 2016, 03:45 AM   #23
norman bates is offline norman bates  United States
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Great, thanks.
Seems like a rugged woof too.
I've thought a high qms is more revealing than a low one, less mechanical resistance to motion.

Cool.
Seeing the graph, if the z is 30 ohms @ 3khz, how much ohmage on notch ?

Norman
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Old 6th September 2016, 03:59 AM   #24
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I don't subscribe to the ohmage theory. All you need to know is that this is a low inductance woofer around 0.6mH like most eminence speakers.

So if you have a bass coil 2X or 3X bigger, its going to be flat enough. Eminence often recommend 2mH and 10uF shunt on the bass, with 3.3uF and 0.3mH on the tweet.

Let's look at the FR:

Click the image to open in full size.

I think you'll end up around 2.5kHz crossover. Below is some modelling of mine with a far less efficient high inductance 10" woofer and a cone tweeter. It all seems to play nicely enough. Second order at least on the tweeter though. Hope it helps. It's your project.
Attached Images
File Type: png Eminence 10 inch Woofer.PNG (6.9 KB, 296 views)
File Type: png 10 inch woofer FR.PNG (17.4 KB, 296 views)
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Old 7th September 2016, 03:29 AM   #25
norman bates is offline norman bates  United States
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ty.

Yea, the morel may melt, but it is a rugged tweet and I'm not trying to impress anyone with how loud my system is anymore.

So you mean just put a coil on the b102 maybe 1.2-1.8mH and forget ?


A 12db would get me away from a time aligned (and phase aligned) setup.

and the b102 (once notched peak out) seems 6db down at 4khz, maybe 12db down at 8khz, almost a 6db rolloff.

Still on the fence but definitely getting wobbly....................
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Old 7th September 2016, 01:17 PM   #26
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I think you should forget preconceived notions about 12dB/octave or 6dB/octave and time-alignment. You get what you get with various drivers, and go with the flow.

I think I'm working harder at this than you. Here's some homework:

DeVore Fidelity Orangutan O/96 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
TQWT-
Designing Loudspeakers - WD25T EX - The next step

Looks like you are just going to scrape it on tweeter level here. I decided that 2.5kHz XO was a good place to be. The bass filter, mere shaping really, is almost written in stone.

Phase alignment isn't very critical. Just seems to work. Most of your efforts will be adjusting the tweeter filter. I'd guess 4.7uF will be reasonable as a simple cap filter here. That 14ohm Fs lump on the ferrofluid CAT 378 shouldn't be too problematic, but I don't like that sort of thing much from listening experience.

A couple of second-order filters seem to play nicely, but values are affected by how much attenuation you need, in fact they all end up in much the same place. The dotted line is what I called the Devore 1 filter.

Nobody gets a speaker right first time. Not even Troels. Because there are trade-offs. But the sort of project I would take on. The final tweeter crossover is not going to be more than 3 components, which can't be that hard.
Attached Images
File Type: png DeVore 1.PNG (7.9 KB, 265 views)
File Type: png DeVore 2.PNG (7.9 KB, 261 views)
File Type: png DeVore 2 FR.PNG (20.3 KB, 68 views)
File Type: jpg Morel CAT 378 FR.JPG (43.5 KB, 64 views)
File Type: jpg Morel CAT 378 Impedance.JPG (42.4 KB, 53 views)
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Old 7th September 2016, 02:21 PM   #27
speakerdoctor is offline speakerdoctor  United States
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Seems like Mr. Bates is seeking a design somewhat similar to some of the vintage New England speakers like EPI or Advent (more complex XO's). Most of those crossed in the 1K to 2K region. Have you considered a high end cone tweeter? One of System 7's favorite speakers utilizes one. I don't recall the brand. sorry. It looks like the speaker on the left in Post #2.
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Old 8th September 2016, 01:53 AM   #28
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I doubt if Norman Bates is his real name, wasn't he the creepy guy in "Psycho"?

I've been simming something similar with a genuine waveguide tweeter, albeit a sophisticated one with a an Fs notch built in. It gets nowhere near 6dB/octave, of course.

You could take the crossover lower, of course, and dispersion improves. It looks like this first-order. With the likely less attenuation with the B102 woofer, the cap would probably be near enough 4.7uF with no resistors. But actually 5.6uF and 15R shunt would be better IMO to damp the Fs a bit.

You can see the tweeter is being worked much harder at low frequency. So distorts more, which is the trade-off. Phase is a bit off, but happily lobes above axis, which is where most of us listen. In fact a bit BW3, which is no bad thing.

I think the bass coil and related notch might be a bit select on test. I really couldn't guess what will sound balanced here, but you can usually just listen to the woofer on its own and get it right.
Attached Images
File Type: png Master Bates' Speaker FR.PNG (15.1 KB, 66 views)
File Type: png Master Bates' Speaker Circuit.PNG (7.0 KB, 73 views)
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Old 16th September 2016, 06:47 PM   #29
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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10" woof plus single capped morel cat378
here's one cabinet for B102 - wonder where its tuned? you can plop an APT50 on it when wanting a different sound than 378 (what existing object might substitute for that "reflector"?) fwiw, I can't find dimensions for the "Jetline 100" port. That line seemed to have a positive diameter taper. An impedance graph would sure help.

I might move my lone "new spec" B102 from a tiny Karlson to a junk 70 liter reflex tuned ~41Hz - wish I had a CAT378 but they ain't free


Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by freddi; 16th September 2016 at 07:11 PM.
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Old 16th September 2016, 11:17 PM   #30
norman bates is offline norman bates  United States
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eek, can't imagine b102 sounds good past 2khz.
Others probably would not even it push it up that high.
I'm pretty sure tekton uses a 12db on their Lore (10" + gold audax).
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...-a-tekton-lore

do you have a link so I can use translator on that K+T project ?

Yea, I'm not one for pipe ported things but I see it is useful for getting it near ear level.

Getting closer, waiting for a buddy to hop on so I can get free shipping for the tweet and cap.

norman
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