Short of building both and deciding which one I like better, how should I go about thinking if I should go direct radiator or horn-loaded for 80 to 500Hz?
I initially planned for direct radiator with double 10" drivers per side, and I already have Hypex 400W monoblock modules to drive the midbass in an digitally active 4-way system. So efficiency wouldn't really be a driver here, nor time-alignment.
I have lately become intrigued by straight midbass horns such as Volvotreter's or Inlow Sound's, mostly from user reports talking about slam and realism. After simulating them and crunching some numbers I realized both designs are compromised in horn length and mouth size, so I'm kind of wondering if a compromised horn is a better option to a non compromised sealed direct radiator if efficiency is not an issue.
FWIW, treble will be Beyma TPL-150H and midrange is under development with a horn-loaded cone from 400 or 500Hz to 2kHz. Subwoofers are direct radiators in sealed enclosures. Room is 25m2 and 3m high, and I sit about 2.4m from each speaker.
What would I gain if I were to go down one path vs the other, given my conditions?
Thank you!
I initially planned for direct radiator with double 10" drivers per side, and I already have Hypex 400W monoblock modules to drive the midbass in an digitally active 4-way system. So efficiency wouldn't really be a driver here, nor time-alignment.
I have lately become intrigued by straight midbass horns such as Volvotreter's or Inlow Sound's, mostly from user reports talking about slam and realism. After simulating them and crunching some numbers I realized both designs are compromised in horn length and mouth size, so I'm kind of wondering if a compromised horn is a better option to a non compromised sealed direct radiator if efficiency is not an issue.
FWIW, treble will be Beyma TPL-150H and midrange is under development with a horn-loaded cone from 400 or 500Hz to 2kHz. Subwoofers are direct radiators in sealed enclosures. Room is 25m2 and 3m high, and I sit about 2.4m from each speaker.
What would I gain if I were to go down one path vs the other, given my conditions?
Thank you!
Have you experimented with your TPL-150H crossed LR4 @1600Hz to your 10G40_2015 in volume ~0.7cuft, Qtc~0.6, F3~90Hz sealed box? Butting the TPL-150H directly to the 10G40 should yield a decent directivity match at 1600Hz. Add a sealed woofer at 90Hz and experiment with room equalization.
You have a modest size listening room, and your family might enjoy a smaller 3-way "baseline design" as you experiment with large horns.
You have a modest size listening room, and your family might enjoy a smaller 3-way "baseline design" as you experiment with large horns.
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Exactly!
I can probably stretch to 1.1m long including back chamber. Volvotreter's horn is 1m long including back chamber. A 1/4 wavelength at 80hz is 1.08m, so barely OK, but ideally I should be at 1.08/.707= 1.52m. This is one of the reasons I say these horns are a compromise. Of course there are a number of users who love how they sound, though.
In terms of mouth, Volvotreter's 50x71cm is very acceptable, but that is 3430cm2 vs my calculations of 11600cm2 for 80Hz...another compromise.
Hence my thread/question: the downside of the horn is its size. But what are the upsides (besides high efficiency, which is a non issue for me I think)?
I haven't. What you suggest would work, but probably wouldn't beat what I have now and frankly I'm not interested in having a woofer like the 10G40 do my midrange. I'd rather focus on the question at hand.
I tend to like Karlson but have a lot of midbass horns including a single 12" driver in 7 cubic foot bulk folded horn. For something compact, how might 4-relatively cheap 10" Delta 10a or even Celestion TF1020 per side direct radiator/vented box perform? By themselves on pink noise, Delta 10a sound pretty bad due to the peak before rolloff but might perform well crossing over to a midhorn.
I think you you just need to build something and enjoy the music. You are suffering from over-analysis paralysis. You probably wont get it right the first time. Experimenting is part of the fun. Its not the destination its the...
This design is about 1M deep (including the back-chamber), If you load this template into Hornresp and make it a bit deeper it will probably do what you want it to do.
My experience with horns vs direct radiators in the 100hz~800hz band give the win to the horn, even with a stacked pair of 15's vs the same 15 in a horn. I have also done a stacked set of four 12's vs two of the same 12's in a horn, the horn sounds much better.
A 95hz dual 12 horn, circa 1981, about 48" wide, 34.5" tall, but only 24" deep.
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This design is about 1M deep (including the back-chamber), If you load this template into Hornresp and make it a bit deeper it will probably do what you want it to do.
My experience with horns vs direct radiators in the 100hz~800hz band give the win to the horn, even with a stacked pair of 15's vs the same 15 in a horn. I have also done a stacked set of four 12's vs two of the same 12's in a horn, the horn sounds much better.
A 95hz dual 12 horn, circa 1981, about 48" wide, 34.5" tall, but only 24" deep.
Thank you!
What driver is being simulated in that Hornresp model?
I will probably need to ask you more about this model as I'm not familiar with what the 2P twin drivers in parallel really represent.
When you say the horn wins:
1) is it safe to assume you say regardless of power available from the amp at hand? Meaning it was not a matter or a smaller amp benefitting from higher efficiency.
2) what is it about the sound of those horns that won over direct radiation?
Thanks again!
"What driver is being simulated in that Hornresp model?"
B&C 12PE32
"I will probably need to ask you more about this model as I'm not familiar with what the 2P twin drivers in parallel really represent."
Two drivers in parallel.
"When you say the horn wins:
1) is it safe to assume you say regardless of power available from the amp at hand? Meaning it was not a matter or a smaller amp benefitting from higher efficiency."
Unlimited power (800W amps).
"2) what is it about the sound of those horns that won over direct radiation?"
It just sounded cleaner, especially in a larger room.
In the 60" tall 4x 12 line array the sound lost its focus beyond 30 feet, with only two of the same drivers in a small horn (30"W x 40"H x 24"D) the sound had good focus and imaging out to about 80 feet.
I use horns as low as is practical from a size standpoint, usually 100hz~200hz, and push-pull slot-loaded cabinets below there (for the lowest distortion, smallest size, highest efficiency, and maximum bass extension).
B&C 12PE32
"I will probably need to ask you more about this model as I'm not familiar with what the 2P twin drivers in parallel really represent."
Two drivers in parallel.
"When you say the horn wins:
1) is it safe to assume you say regardless of power available from the amp at hand? Meaning it was not a matter or a smaller amp benefitting from higher efficiency."
Unlimited power (800W amps).
"2) what is it about the sound of those horns that won over direct radiation?"
It just sounded cleaner, especially in a larger room.
In the 60" tall 4x 12 line array the sound lost its focus beyond 30 feet, with only two of the same drivers in a small horn (30"W x 40"H x 24"D) the sound had good focus and imaging out to about 80 feet.
I use horns as low as is practical from a size standpoint, usually 100hz~200hz, and push-pull slot-loaded cabinets below there (for the lowest distortion, smallest size, highest efficiency, and maximum bass extension).
Beyma direct radiators will permit you spend less, and have better performance. In my case, once i had what i was looking for, it did put a end of diy audio hobby, which was a good thing. Would i have to begin from scratch, with the experience i have today, i would not have made the effort to build expensive horns. Today, they are just decor in my living. Germans use the Beyma 10G40 in the Hornet , MTM design, and seem to get good results. Not even a sub is required.
Beyma Speakers - Beyma 10G40 speaker - Beyma 10G40 600 watt 10" speaker for all bass applications. Beyma 10G40 bass speaker and other Beyma 10" speakers here.
Looks like a nice driver, but more expensive than the B&C 12PE32, and won't go as high in a horn.
Looks like a nice driver, but more expensive than the B&C 12PE32, and won't go as high in a horn.
80-500 Hz
The required size of a horn to cover that range will be massive and extend half of your total allotted distance into your listening position. You will be better served concentrating on the building techniques involved in the mid-bass region.
You're better off with a total direct radiator system. If I was the one who suggested you experiment with a mid range horn, then I do apologize. I wish I had not. You have made some very wise choices with respect to drivers. Now, all the remains to be done, is to learn how to get the most out of them. Just building a non resonant/neutral sounding mid range enclosure is challenge enough. Taking the modular approach (which you have also wisely chosen) will go a long way towards your ability to try new "things".
First builds/first attempts seldom work correctly "right out-of-the gate". I put together a 3-way system yesterday, and I spent several hours fiddling with crossover points and balancing. It's better than when I started but still has a way to go. The same dual driver mid range I used in my dedicated room sounded just fine, but in this "typical living room", it was too hot. The amplifier/speaker driver/crossover interface is something you have to experience to believe. There are almost endless combinations. Active based systems are very complex, and difficult, but once you have them "dialed in" you will have something very special.
The required size of a horn to cover that range will be massive and extend half of your total allotted distance into your listening position. You will be better served concentrating on the building techniques involved in the mid-bass region.
You're better off with a total direct radiator system. If I was the one who suggested you experiment with a mid range horn, then I do apologize. I wish I had not. You have made some very wise choices with respect to drivers. Now, all the remains to be done, is to learn how to get the most out of them. Just building a non resonant/neutral sounding mid range enclosure is challenge enough. Taking the modular approach (which you have also wisely chosen) will go a long way towards your ability to try new "things".
First builds/first attempts seldom work correctly "right out-of-the gate". I put together a 3-way system yesterday, and I spent several hours fiddling with crossover points and balancing. It's better than when I started but still has a way to go. The same dual driver mid range I used in my dedicated room sounded just fine, but in this "typical living room", it was too hot. The amplifier/speaker driver/crossover interface is something you have to experience to believe. There are almost endless combinations. Active based systems are very complex, and difficult, but once you have them "dialed in" you will have something very special.
Thank you. Many people use/like that driver in midbass horns.
Cleaner and higher slam sure sound appealing.
You brought up another important factor which is room size. Your room seems to be large, while mine isn't. It's 18x16 feet footprint and 10 feet high. Speakers sit 8 feet away from each other and from the listening point. Is this an appropriate size for midbass horns?
Hey Angelo. Yeap, I remember your experience very well, and probably the Hornet is what led me to the 10G40. Maybe I should stick with dual direct radiators and later try a midbass horn to see if I like it better...that is the crux here: without trying both, like you did, there is no real way to know which one is better for me. Yet getting points of views from those who have gone through this helps me think through it.
Hey Scott. Not sure I can point to one person, but rather to some generous discussions and lots of reading, and my hope to be able to drive tweeters and midranges with 45-based SETs, that led me to horns for midrange. I'm on my 3rd prototype now and looking to settle on a design before I decide between current direct radiator vs horn.
As to the midbass, I spent significant time researching direct radiator drivers for my needs. But as I continue to read about midrange horns I've come across comments related to midbass horns that I found intriguing. I think I need to understand if they are appropriate for my use. Apart from their size, building midbass horns doesn't seem too challenging - not meaning it's easy, though.
At that distance with 45 (SE 2 watts?) amps You may be able to get away with a pair of parallel wired 16 ohm 15s. A midbass horn that could easily beat that will be pretty deep. Just don't expect realistic dynamics and volume out of either. SET amps I have have excellent bass sound but fail to drive my midrange basshorns to say "in the room" single standing bass levels. I image there are better 45 amps out there but you will only get so much.
If you are not using the sidewall to reinforce the bass horn response you probably will have to build a half size horn.
I guess I wasn't clear: it's a 4-way active system where 45 SETs will drive tweeters and midranges (separately), the midbass will by driven by Hypex 400W, and subs are self-powered. So SETs don't come into play for midbass considerations.
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