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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Who makes the lowest distortion speaker drivers
Who makes the lowest distortion speaker drivers
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Old 14th November 2017, 04:09 PM   #751
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vacuphile View Post
Nonsense. You can't retrieve information that was outside the window of the first FFT.
I think that you need to think this through better, because it is a simple fact that I can generate the CSD from the t=0 response alone. This means that all the information in the CSD is contained in the t=0 result. This should be obvious since the impulse response contains all information and the CSD is just showing ever smaller portions of it. At no time does the CSD use any data that is not in the original t=0 response. Windowing, as you imply, is not the answer here.
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Old 14th November 2017, 06:56 PM   #752
Boden is offline Boden  Netherlands
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@ post 746

Vac, what you show is rather amazing.

Firstly, the FR is 1/3 smoothed, whereas the waterfall is unsmoothened.
Such heavy smoothing makes narrow band dips and peaks disappear.

Secondly, the waterfall O dB line stops providing usefull FR info below 1000 Hz, which info is in the FR plot, running to 20 Hz.
Basically the 0 dB line in the Waterfall should be identical to the FR plot, although the graphic presentation of the FR usually looks a bit smoother, because of somewhout different scaling.

And now you want us to believe both plots are derived from one and the very same impulse without touching the windowing markers in ARTA, in other words with the markers in exactly the same spot?

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Old 14th November 2017, 11:58 PM   #753
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Default Who makes the lowest distortion speaker drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
I think that you need to think this through better, because it is a simple fact that I can generate the CSD from the t=0 response alone. This means that all the information in the CSD is contained in the t=0 result. This should be obvious since the impulse response contains all information and the CSD is just showing ever smaller portions of it. At no time does the CSD use any data that is not in the original t=0 response. Windowing, as you imply, is not the answer here.
What you say is true. But then we have to figure out ways to look at how much of t=0 still remains beyond t=0, do you know of a better way to show it? How will it assist in showing deficiencies more clearly? How will it more clearly show differences related with audible differences?
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Last edited by soongsc; 15th November 2017 at 12:00 AM.
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Old 15th November 2017, 01:07 AM   #754
PB2 is offline PB2  United States
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Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
I do get that no one is really saying they all sound the same, HD rarely is the number one character when defining sound quality.

I do have an example where cleaner woofers make an audible difference that shows up in the frequency domain due to reduced harmonic distortion of the drivers.

I have a pair of JBL 4430’s. They have a single 2235 woofer and they sound pretty good. I also have 4435’s with the dual 2234’s in them and they sound a lot better, on the bottom, much cleaner and tighter.

The one inch drivers on the 4435’s are the limiting factor for listening loud, they start to get hard when you lean on them. The 4430’s are pretty ballanced as both drivers approach their limits about the same time.

Here’s the main difference, the dual 15’s have about 1/10 the distortion at the same volume as the single, according to the JBL owners manual for the 4430-4435.

So here comes a pair of 4350’s with 2235’s. They have the same sound character on the bottom (250Hz and down) as the 4435’s but will play way louder than the 4435’s overall, as expected.

Where is this all going? The 4430 has midbass growth at high volume that I originally attributed to something I have heard explained as “overdriving the room” or stored energy in the modal region. Pretty much all my systems have displayed this to some extent. The midbass gets muddy with volume BUT,, the dual 15” 4435 and 4350 exhibit this less.

Here’s my big argument to this whole distortion in woofers is meaningless:

I bought four JBL 1500Al woofers as used in the DD6600. These are what JBL calls ultra low distortion woofers, like 0.1% HD at 100 Watts input power as compared to the several whole number percent HD 2235’s and guess what?

The mid bass growth phenomenon is totally absent in the 4350’s with these ultra low distortion drivers.

I attribute this to the absence of increasing false additional mid-bass generated by the driver when operating at high levels.

Increasing HD as drive level increases is a nonlinear distortion that I can easily discern in woofers in this case.

Barry.
You are exactly correct here, it is HD and/or IMD and it is audible. I've observed the same
thing with different speakers. No, I did not do a double blind experiment. Your speakers
and mine are "well behaved" with gradual onset of non-linearity allowing us to push them
hard so that we can hear the gradual onset of HD.

Earl, made his assertions based on specific contrived experiments.

An untrained listener will hear more bass in the distorted speaker and MIGHT like it more - I don't.

I also believe that the observations will change when a better reference is available
in A/B comparisons.

I started a thread one time: "When Bad is Good".
Audio and especially human perception are complex.

Last edited by PB2; 15th November 2017 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 15th November 2017, 12:54 PM   #755
33Polkhigh is offline 33Polkhigh  United States
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Earl's problem is that he's never heard ear buds made of "mental material". Times are a changing.
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Old 15th November 2017, 03:34 PM   #756
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PB2 View Post
Earl, made his assertions based on specific contrived experiments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Polkhigh View Post
Earl's problem is that he's never heard ear buds made of "mental material".
I should point out that it is not just me that believe this, it is also professed by JBL's entire engineering staff and The THX people, just to name a few. I just happen to be the only one willing (or crazy enough) to come to the forums to express those beliefs.

And any results that are reported that are not blind can certainly not be held up as evidence against tests done correctly.
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Old 15th November 2017, 03:43 PM   #757
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Forums should be a place for brainstorming and finding ways to improve on existing technology. Letís focus on ideas rather than trying to discredit people. Everyone has different experiences, and we know that audio systems are far from perfect. How can we move to improve on existing methods should be much more productive.
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Old 15th November 2017, 04:47 PM   #758
33Polkhigh is offline 33Polkhigh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
I should point out that it is not just me that believe this, it is also professed by JBL's entire engineering staff and The THX people, just to name a few.
That's JBL's problem too, they don't use "mental material". In all seriousness though a lot depends on personal preferences and what one is willing to put up with or adjust to. Linear distortion and dispersion are generally recognized to be more important that other types of distortion.

Electronics and amps are for the most part transparent.

Last edited by 33Polkhigh; 15th November 2017 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 15th November 2017, 05:21 PM   #759
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soongsc View Post
Forums should be a place for brainstorming and finding ways to improve on existing technology.
^this
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Old 15th November 2017, 05:48 PM   #760
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
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Who makes the lowest distortion speaker drivers
subjectively, I've thought of near-field as being too close to use multi-way speakers due to poor integration of the sound. As soon as I'm far enough that a multi-way speaker sounds coherent then I'm no longer in the near-field. For computer speakers, single driver full-range is the way to go.
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