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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Who makes the lowest distortion speaker drivers
Who makes the lowest distortion speaker drivers
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:52 PM   #1871
turk 182 is offline turk 182  Canada
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yes, and that picture illustrates the typical uninformed attempt at "improving them" which is removing the 8mm foam that is attached to the grill. i freely admit i did the same thing is searching for ways to improve them to no avail, they do subjectively benefit from the stock foam.
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:54 PM   #1872
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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that's why in the PA world the general consensus is that the now out of production Adamson MH series cabinets while excellent at pattern control (and easy truck pack) all have a "je ne sais quois?" veil to their sonic signatures that was considered a negative drawback... those designs where built using oblate spheriod waveguides.
And from this rumor you have concluded that it was the (almost) OS waveguides that were the problem?
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Old 16th April 2018, 02:58 PM   #1873
turk 182 is offline turk 182  Canada
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termination support? have you ever seen what's inside? the casting is thick with respect to depth and the internal bracing is not lacking.
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Old 16th April 2018, 03:08 PM   #1874
turk 182 is offline turk 182  Canada
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no, not from any rumors, i've used these for a number of years. (long term listening and measurements)
i guess you still can't recall the one time we met in person can you? best thing is Brock himself was there and told me to bring my questions and concerns to you directly, it was a lively and engaging conversation up until it came to asking you why they sounded the way they did. after that subject had been broached it went south quickly.

in case you missed it see post 1761

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Old 16th April 2018, 03:08 PM   #1875
DBMandrake is offline DBMandrake  Scotland
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Let's not forget that the HF slope interacts with the HF DI. For example a rising DI to a very high DI at the highest frequencies (like a piston source) sounds about right if the axial response is near flat. But take a waveguide with a flat DI that does not rise at the highest frequencies and if it is set to flat on axis then it will sound very bright. And, of course, this is also affected to a certain respect by the rooms absorption.
This is one reason I like the different vertical and horizontal directivity patterns of a small waveguide loaded ribbon tweeter.

In the horizontal plane it is more or less CD ~90-120 degrees from about 2Khz up to about 15Khz controlled by the waveguide, giving a spectrally neutral (but attenuated) off axis response for sidewall reflections and minimal baffle diffraction effects from cabinet edges, however in the vertical plane it has a lot higher, smoothly increasing DI with no significant vertical "side" lobes.

This increased DI in the vertical plane brings the overall room power response down at higher frequencies such that the power response can taper down sufficiently whilst simultaneously having a flat on axis response. So there is no need to taper down the on axis response to get a "neutral" sounding response like there is on drivers with excessive or equal dispersion in both planes at high frequencies.

Another benefit is reduced floor and ceiling reflections of high frequencies - which are detrimental to imaging.

Our perception of the effects of directivity in the horizontal and vertical planes is completely different, so I don't see any reason why the high frequency directivity of a tweeter should be the same in both planes except for "that's the way it's traditionally done" using round drivers or round waveguides.

But when you look into it there are advantages to deliberately making vertical and horizontal patterns different at high frequencies to exploit these differences in perception and get a suitable balance between on axis and power response.
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Old 16th April 2018, 03:22 PM   #1876
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
In the horizontal plane it is more or less CD ~90-120 degrees from about 2Khz up to about 15Khz controlled by the waveguide, giving a spectrally neutral (but attenuated) off axis response for sidewall reflections and minimal baffle diffraction effects from cabinet edges, however in the vertical plane it has a lot higher, smoothly increasing DI with no significant vertical "side" lobes.
It's the sidewall reflections that I don't want. And with a directivity of up to 120 degrees there will be significant baffle diffraction. One cannot assume because there is directivity in the far field that this directivity holds right down to the baffle.

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Another benefit is reduced floor and ceiling reflections of high frequencies - which are detrimental to imaging.

Our perception of the effects of directivity in the horizontal and vertical planes is completely different, so I don't see any reason why the high frequency directivity of a tweeter should be the same in both planes except for "that's the way it's traditionally done" using round drivers or round waveguides.

But when you look into it there are advantages to deliberately making vertical and horizontal patterns different at high frequencies to exploit these differences in perception and get a suitable balance between on axis and power response.
I don't disagree that different vertical and horizontal coverage could have some advantages, but the implementation also tends to have some severe disadvantages. I have made waveguides with different vertical and horizontal coverage. The vertical coverage tends to collapse much sooner than the horizontal because the waveguide is narrower. This aggravates the vertical lobbing at the crossover, which is something to be avoided. I treat the floor and ceiling bounce in the room, not in the speaker.
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Old 16th April 2018, 03:26 PM   #1877
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by turk 182 View Post
no, not from any rumors, i've used these for a number of years. (long term listening and measurements)
i guess you still can't recall the one time we met in person can you? best thing is Brock himself was there and told me to bring my questions and concerns to you directly, it was a lively and engaging conversation up until it came to asking you why they sounded the way they did. after that subject had been broached it went south quickly.

in case you missed it see post 1761
Are blaming Brock's design on me? Or you just don't like me personally, I can't figure out which. I had very little to do with the speakers that you show and if you look at my own designs you will see that they are nothing alike. Brock did many many things wrong.
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Old 16th April 2018, 03:29 PM   #1878
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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So many things make me think a wideband dipole ain't such a bad compromise
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Old 16th April 2018, 04:02 PM   #1879
turk 182 is offline turk 182  Canada
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kind of thought i would see a reply of that nature.
no i do not have a problem with you personally and respect the body of your work, i just dislike the scapegoating you engage in (like blaming others for not getting it right) when anyone attempts to ask or talk about the potentially negative aspects of waveguiding and the design process.

continually down playing and seesawing on "distortion" "linear" or "non linear" and it's "perception" and "bias's" as being the reasons/proof that there's "nothing wrong" with oblate spheriod waveguides.

that you had no input or very little to do with MH series cabs that sure wasn't your take back then...

Last edited by turk 182; 16th April 2018 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 16th April 2018, 04:10 PM   #1880
1audiohack is offline 1audiohack  United States
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....back to distortion... how can a driver/loudspeaker having high harmonic distortion still be considered linear?
Thank you!

Barry.
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