Hi,
When it comes to dialling in the DSP, I'd recommend taking lots of measurements in the different listening positions. While one listening position might have a huge suckout somewhere, EQing that back in will produce an awful peak for everyone else.
If it'll only ever be you listening, then fine, EQ it so its perfect where you sit.
To say those are in-room measurements, you're doing rather well. I think I'd add a dB or two shelving below 600Hz. Maybe.
Chris
When it comes to dialling in the DSP, I'd recommend taking lots of measurements in the different listening positions. While one listening position might have a huge suckout somewhere, EQing that back in will produce an awful peak for everyone else.
If it'll only ever be you listening, then fine, EQ it so its perfect where you sit.
To say those are in-room measurements, you're doing rather well. I think I'd add a dB or two shelving below 600Hz. Maybe.
Chris
Chris absolutely, have done quote a bit of measuring in all areas of this room so getting quite familiar with its acoustic signature. But yes only listening is being done from the "listening couch" so I'm not too concerned about other areas of the room which fluctuate greatly.
It also happens that my Mother-in-law was complaining about how it sounded like she was standing right in front of the speakers despite being on the other side of the house =)
I'll give your suggestion a try, this morning I pulled 2db out between 800 and 1500 which really helped female vocals which were in the slightly nasal side.
Thanks for the comments!
Javad
Little quick video of them playing some Patricia Barber "What a Shame"
https://vimeo.com/165793439
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://vimeo.com/165793439
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I’m going to call these speakers “SFE812” for the “SeosFaitalProEminence drivers and 8 and 12 inch drivers.
I got these buttoned up Friday night and lugged them into my audio room (Living room we never use that I took over from the wife! =) using the nice furniture dolly I got from Harbor Freight to move the increasingly large speakers I’m building these days.
The DE250 compression driver is running off a pair of channels of a 4 channel Adcom GFA-2535 getting about 50 watts per channel at 8 ohms, the FaitalPro 8” mids are getting about the same each running 4 ohms total off the other 2 channels. The Mag 12”s are getting about 300 watts each in 8 ohms from a GFA-5800. A MiniDSP 4x10 is currently processing 6 channels, 2 each for the tweeter, mids and subs.
I immediately did a FR sweep in REW and frankly, they weren’t horrible. I threw a few songs at them and was very pleasantly surprised! This is my first time using a CD and I was really worried (not really) that they’d sound honkey and overpowering, but that wasn’t the case even w/o any EQ. But they definitely needed some work, lots of room stuff, the CD was overpowering the mids and the bass needed some work too. After a few hours of tuning and listening I feel I have a very good baseline to work from and continue to tweak.
Though I always love to try to make FR as flat as possible, I do personally like exaggerated bass and treble in my music, about 2-3 DB in the tweeter (above 5k) and more like 5db in the bass region below 80hz, but the bass and treble knobs on my Adcom preamp work pretty well for that.
Like anyone, I have my reference music that I use to evaluate speakers and have a lot of experience with, so I dove right in, so exciting! U2’s “One”, Paul Simon “Diamonds on the Souls of Her Shoes”, Tesla’s “Love Song”, some jazz like Thad Jones and Mel Lewis Orchestra, live music, 1812 overture, etc.
Overall listening impressions so far…
Any potential concerns (lets start with the potentially bad):
1 - There is sufficient bass but it’s not quite as much as I want from this system, I knew that would probably be the case but this was a great start. The speakers are easily flat to 20hz so no concerns there. Frankly the subs need to break in, but considering even the efficiency of these two 12” compared to what the mids and tweeters are, the subs are at a disadvantage at higher volume levels (above 100db 1 meter) the subs definitely show signs of stress. With a high pass of 45hz 12db/octave I can take the system to 115db at 1 meter with no stress to the sub, but then I’m losing some bass and it’s audible.
Easy to solve with an additional subwoofer module, and these 12’s absolutely kill it in the 50-100hz range as-is. I’m considering a Dayton PA465S subwoofer in 5ft^3 tuned to about 30hz, that should give the bass on the bottom end to match the mids and highs and keep the pro audio theme going.
2 - Though the Seos10 horns create a really broad soundstage and sweet spot, I have found that toeing the speakers into the listening position really creates a much better sound in the 1-3khz range. Especially noticeable in voices like Lindsey Buckingham Big Love (live). The sound completely changes once you are on axis with the tweeters. I spent extra time on the cross over points and the FR in the 900-5k hz range and it is quite flat in there, but maybe I’ll find something else that helps. Again, nitpicking here, just trying to find anything constructive.
3 - Overall these just sound different than the RS4 or PS2 speakers I built recently, and those sound amazing to me as well, but in a different way. It's tougher to evaluate cerebrally, but emotionally I find myself getting a lot of chills listening to passages I’ve heard thousands of times before, waves of satisfaction hitting when the drums kick in or the snare drum cracks. I’ve never heard a home audio speaker quite like these (there is a lot out there I haven’t heard but I’m sure it’s what’s driving all the rage in using pro drivers for home audio these days!) I can’t say traditional audiophile drivers aren’t as detailed or are more delicate because these SFE812 are both - I’m just going to have to think about this more as I keep listening to these guys.
Basically to summarize, and excuse my French, but good audio speakers I’ve built are like the tender, nubile first embrace of Romeo and Juliet, the SFE812 are like the “slam her up against the wall, rip her shirt off, go to town on her athletically” type of love scene you might see on the internet. They are just as delicate and detailed as an audiophile speaker, but with take charge ability to take you on a musical ride! At times after listening to a song like Metallica’s Enter Sandman, as it comes to the end, I almost feel like I just rode a roller coaster ride. Metallica’s Black album in general, wow, I wish I had a blood pressure cuff on during my time listening to that album!
The good stuff:
1 - Loud, fast, detailed, efficient, transient, attack and alarming are all words I’d use to describe these speakers compared to the average audiophile speaker. They really are an illicit love child of an audiophile speaker and a raucous cigarette infused PA speaker. I often found myself jumping or being surprised by what just came out of the speaker, and on a song I’ve heard hundreds of times before but in a completely new way.
2 - I love demoing speakers with Tesla’s Love Song as it’s acoustic, it’s rock, it’s drums, it’s vocals, it has it all and the recording quality is excellent. The song has a broad dynamic range and highlights transients well. The song starts out with vocals and light acoustic guitar, the voice is open and airy yet powerful and defined. About a minute into the song it transitions from acoustic to a full blown rock song, the transition is highlighted and introduced by the crack of a snare drum and hit of the kick drum. I was playing it pretty loud, probably close to 105db (at 1 meter) so I knew it would be good, when the drums hit it literally shocked me, it was so loud and clear, such a new way to hear this familiar song that it brought me to tears - literally! Suddenly I was filled with memories of sitting in the back of my friends Dad’s truck with the song blaring when I was a kid, taken back to a live performance. When music is produced realistically and impactfully it is moving, and boy was I moved! I had tears running down my face for the duration of the song, what an incredible experience, this is what Audio is all about!
3 - Imaging is hyper realistic, I think a lot of it is my room and my ability to position speakers in the middle of the room away from walls, but voices and instruments are placed across a broad front stage that extends down the sides of the listening area as well, to the point where several times I questioned if surround sound was on (it’s a 2-channels system so not possible)
4 - Midbass attack is excellent, between the mids and this Mag 12, anything in the 60-120hz range is dynamic and “cracks. Much of it is the horns too, a lot of the low frequency audio elements we’re used to hearing have a high frequency component (like drums, snares, even bass guitar) and the horn really brings those dynamics to life. Dave Matthews “Dancing Nancies”, his voice is dry and sharp, non resonant and extremely realistic, snare drum is sharp and cracks, bass guitar beat is sharp and snappy. Ants marching starts out with the sharp cracking of the snare, it almost sounds like the drum is in front of me. Alan Walker’s “Faded” has strong throbbing midbass beats that are well defined, other subwoofers I’ve heard just sort of blend these beats together into a bassey note. Linin Park’s “Frgt/10” is a demanding song with a very tight and hard midbass cadence, I had these pushing 108db in the listening position today with the high pass of 45hz@12db and the energy and dynamics was giving me chills! Bass drum hits on Jennifer Warnes “Bird on a Wire” are tight, defined and the echo in the studio/reverb accurately reproduced.
5 - I”m very impressed with these horns and compression drivers, these are the first I’ve used and I tried not to cheap out but they’re certainly not the most expensive CD’s out there either ($110 each). The dreaded honk and 1k quack is missing after proper EQ’ing thank goodness, I ended up with about 2db down in the 800-1300hz range to minimize this and really hone in on female vocals like the Indigo Girls. Jennifer Warns songs are open, airy, loud and present, her voice is reproduced as accurately as I’ve ever heard it and I’ve been demoing that album going on 25 years. Same with Kathy Mattea's “Where have you been”, listening to this at about 105db listening position also brought me to tears today, her voice so realistic, every detail being reproduced. I love Imogen Heap’s “Hide and Seek”, very tough to reproduce the vocals accurately, second half of the song it starts raining in the background, the better speakers make this crystal clear and you’d never hear it on mediocre speakers.
6 - The mids are clean and clear and get very loud, very efficient and fast, present and warm. The mids needed about 8 EQ filters to smooth them out, more than I was expecting but I may give them a clean sheet effort this week to see if I can do better by combining some filters and being smarter about them. No issues or complaints with them, I’d use them again, and for $50 each they are a real value.
In Summary…
IF I would have done anything differently with these, it would have been using two 15” (like the B&C 15TBW100) instead of the 12’s, that would have likely prevented the need for a separate subwoofer, but that’s not really a bad thing either. That would have made for a substantially bigger enclosure and that’s ultimately why I went with the 12” and the option for a separate 18” subwoofer. With the 18” I have an incredible 4-way with very good midbass in the 12”, the 18 will only add to that as well as extending the lower octaves and making the 12’s work that much less hard.
Frankly I can’t think of a better way to spend about $1k, really looking forward to getting to know these speakers better, getting the subwoofer built and continuing the learning process with all the equipment and resources that are available these days. Eventually I’ll put these up for sale to fund the next project, right now I’m hungry for experiences and new learning opportunities.
Thanks, any comments, thoughts and feedback are welcome!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I got these buttoned up Friday night and lugged them into my audio room (Living room we never use that I took over from the wife! =) using the nice furniture dolly I got from Harbor Freight to move the increasingly large speakers I’m building these days.
The DE250 compression driver is running off a pair of channels of a 4 channel Adcom GFA-2535 getting about 50 watts per channel at 8 ohms, the FaitalPro 8” mids are getting about the same each running 4 ohms total off the other 2 channels. The Mag 12”s are getting about 300 watts each in 8 ohms from a GFA-5800. A MiniDSP 4x10 is currently processing 6 channels, 2 each for the tweeter, mids and subs.
I immediately did a FR sweep in REW and frankly, they weren’t horrible. I threw a few songs at them and was very pleasantly surprised! This is my first time using a CD and I was really worried (not really) that they’d sound honkey and overpowering, but that wasn’t the case even w/o any EQ. But they definitely needed some work, lots of room stuff, the CD was overpowering the mids and the bass needed some work too. After a few hours of tuning and listening I feel I have a very good baseline to work from and continue to tweak.
Though I always love to try to make FR as flat as possible, I do personally like exaggerated bass and treble in my music, about 2-3 DB in the tweeter (above 5k) and more like 5db in the bass region below 80hz, but the bass and treble knobs on my Adcom preamp work pretty well for that.
Like anyone, I have my reference music that I use to evaluate speakers and have a lot of experience with, so I dove right in, so exciting! U2’s “One”, Paul Simon “Diamonds on the Souls of Her Shoes”, Tesla’s “Love Song”, some jazz like Thad Jones and Mel Lewis Orchestra, live music, 1812 overture, etc.
Overall listening impressions so far…
Any potential concerns (lets start with the potentially bad):
1 - There is sufficient bass but it’s not quite as much as I want from this system, I knew that would probably be the case but this was a great start. The speakers are easily flat to 20hz so no concerns there. Frankly the subs need to break in, but considering even the efficiency of these two 12” compared to what the mids and tweeters are, the subs are at a disadvantage at higher volume levels (above 100db 1 meter) the subs definitely show signs of stress. With a high pass of 45hz 12db/octave I can take the system to 115db at 1 meter with no stress to the sub, but then I’m losing some bass and it’s audible.
Easy to solve with an additional subwoofer module, and these 12’s absolutely kill it in the 50-100hz range as-is. I’m considering a Dayton PA465S subwoofer in 5ft^3 tuned to about 30hz, that should give the bass on the bottom end to match the mids and highs and keep the pro audio theme going.
2 - Though the Seos10 horns create a really broad soundstage and sweet spot, I have found that toeing the speakers into the listening position really creates a much better sound in the 1-3khz range. Especially noticeable in voices like Lindsey Buckingham Big Love (live). The sound completely changes once you are on axis with the tweeters. I spent extra time on the cross over points and the FR in the 900-5k hz range and it is quite flat in there, but maybe I’ll find something else that helps. Again, nitpicking here, just trying to find anything constructive.
3 - Overall these just sound different than the RS4 or PS2 speakers I built recently, and those sound amazing to me as well, but in a different way. It's tougher to evaluate cerebrally, but emotionally I find myself getting a lot of chills listening to passages I’ve heard thousands of times before, waves of satisfaction hitting when the drums kick in or the snare drum cracks. I’ve never heard a home audio speaker quite like these (there is a lot out there I haven’t heard but I’m sure it’s what’s driving all the rage in using pro drivers for home audio these days!) I can’t say traditional audiophile drivers aren’t as detailed or are more delicate because these SFE812 are both - I’m just going to have to think about this more as I keep listening to these guys.
Basically to summarize, and excuse my French, but good audio speakers I’ve built are like the tender, nubile first embrace of Romeo and Juliet, the SFE812 are like the “slam her up against the wall, rip her shirt off, go to town on her athletically” type of love scene you might see on the internet. They are just as delicate and detailed as an audiophile speaker, but with take charge ability to take you on a musical ride! At times after listening to a song like Metallica’s Enter Sandman, as it comes to the end, I almost feel like I just rode a roller coaster ride. Metallica’s Black album in general, wow, I wish I had a blood pressure cuff on during my time listening to that album!
The good stuff:
1 - Loud, fast, detailed, efficient, transient, attack and alarming are all words I’d use to describe these speakers compared to the average audiophile speaker. They really are an illicit love child of an audiophile speaker and a raucous cigarette infused PA speaker. I often found myself jumping or being surprised by what just came out of the speaker, and on a song I’ve heard hundreds of times before but in a completely new way.
2 - I love demoing speakers with Tesla’s Love Song as it’s acoustic, it’s rock, it’s drums, it’s vocals, it has it all and the recording quality is excellent. The song has a broad dynamic range and highlights transients well. The song starts out with vocals and light acoustic guitar, the voice is open and airy yet powerful and defined. About a minute into the song it transitions from acoustic to a full blown rock song, the transition is highlighted and introduced by the crack of a snare drum and hit of the kick drum. I was playing it pretty loud, probably close to 105db (at 1 meter) so I knew it would be good, when the drums hit it literally shocked me, it was so loud and clear, such a new way to hear this familiar song that it brought me to tears - literally! Suddenly I was filled with memories of sitting in the back of my friends Dad’s truck with the song blaring when I was a kid, taken back to a live performance. When music is produced realistically and impactfully it is moving, and boy was I moved! I had tears running down my face for the duration of the song, what an incredible experience, this is what Audio is all about!
3 - Imaging is hyper realistic, I think a lot of it is my room and my ability to position speakers in the middle of the room away from walls, but voices and instruments are placed across a broad front stage that extends down the sides of the listening area as well, to the point where several times I questioned if surround sound was on (it’s a 2-channels system so not possible)
4 - Midbass attack is excellent, between the mids and this Mag 12, anything in the 60-120hz range is dynamic and “cracks. Much of it is the horns too, a lot of the low frequency audio elements we’re used to hearing have a high frequency component (like drums, snares, even bass guitar) and the horn really brings those dynamics to life. Dave Matthews “Dancing Nancies”, his voice is dry and sharp, non resonant and extremely realistic, snare drum is sharp and cracks, bass guitar beat is sharp and snappy. Ants marching starts out with the sharp cracking of the snare, it almost sounds like the drum is in front of me. Alan Walker’s “Faded” has strong throbbing midbass beats that are well defined, other subwoofers I’ve heard just sort of blend these beats together into a bassey note. Linin Park’s “Frgt/10” is a demanding song with a very tight and hard midbass cadence, I had these pushing 108db in the listening position today with the high pass of 45hz@12db and the energy and dynamics was giving me chills! Bass drum hits on Jennifer Warnes “Bird on a Wire” are tight, defined and the echo in the studio/reverb accurately reproduced.
5 - I”m very impressed with these horns and compression drivers, these are the first I’ve used and I tried not to cheap out but they’re certainly not the most expensive CD’s out there either ($110 each). The dreaded honk and 1k quack is missing after proper EQ’ing thank goodness, I ended up with about 2db down in the 800-1300hz range to minimize this and really hone in on female vocals like the Indigo Girls. Jennifer Warns songs are open, airy, loud and present, her voice is reproduced as accurately as I’ve ever heard it and I’ve been demoing that album going on 25 years. Same with Kathy Mattea's “Where have you been”, listening to this at about 105db listening position also brought me to tears today, her voice so realistic, every detail being reproduced. I love Imogen Heap’s “Hide and Seek”, very tough to reproduce the vocals accurately, second half of the song it starts raining in the background, the better speakers make this crystal clear and you’d never hear it on mediocre speakers.
6 - The mids are clean and clear and get very loud, very efficient and fast, present and warm. The mids needed about 8 EQ filters to smooth them out, more than I was expecting but I may give them a clean sheet effort this week to see if I can do better by combining some filters and being smarter about them. No issues or complaints with them, I’d use them again, and for $50 each they are a real value.
In Summary…
IF I would have done anything differently with these, it would have been using two 15” (like the B&C 15TBW100) instead of the 12’s, that would have likely prevented the need for a separate subwoofer, but that’s not really a bad thing either. That would have made for a substantially bigger enclosure and that’s ultimately why I went with the 12” and the option for a separate 18” subwoofer. With the 18” I have an incredible 4-way with very good midbass in the 12”, the 18 will only add to that as well as extending the lower octaves and making the 12’s work that much less hard.
Frankly I can’t think of a better way to spend about $1k, really looking forward to getting to know these speakers better, getting the subwoofer built and continuing the learning process with all the equipment and resources that are available these days. Eventually I’ll put these up for sale to fund the next project, right now I’m hungry for experiences and new learning opportunities.
Thanks, any comments, thoughts and feedback are welcome!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You might sacrifice some mid-hf sensitivity and fill out the power range better IMHO. Seems to me like there is some lack of energy between 150-800Hz especially when at couch distance.
No theory per se just experimenting, with active DSP it's trivial to try different configurations, there was a hump right in the 1800hz range which flattened out when I split the XO like this and sounded very good. I experimented with about 10 different frequencies and slopes in the 1000-2500hz range. =)
Don't put too much credence in the video, just from an iPhone 6+, just highlights detail and transients well, mids sound very detailed and warm with current tuning, but certainly not done playing with the DSP by any means. Thanks!
Javad
Thanks @mrk7! Just my iPhone 6s. Let me know what charts/measurements you'd like to see from REW, not sure what is standard that most like to post.
First of all, I'm really impressed! Looks like great handiwork and well thought out. You must have a lot of time and energy (I find juggling job, kids, house and wife quite time and energy consuming)
Well, I like measurements... So here's a list
1. Distortion when playing above 90 dB (at 1 m).
2. Step and impulse response.
3. CSD (waterfall).
4. Horisontal and vertical polar response. Maybe 0, 30, 60, 90 deg horisontal and 0, 15, 30, 45 deg vertical.
I'm certain the first one will look spectacular with your speaker, and probably number 4 as well. The other two will be interesting!
One question: You said "Also have a 5ms delay on the left subwoofer which helped with some room issues tremendously."
5 ms sounds like a lot, that's 1.72 m (half a wavelength at 100 Hz). Are you sure that it is in correct phase?
Oh, and I agree that the level below 700 Hz is a little low (in the only curve that you've posted). I (and many others) seem to prefer a slight downward slope in the frequency response.
/Anton
First of all, I'm really impressed! Looks like great handiwork and well thought out. You must have a lot of time and energy (I find juggling job, kids, house and wife quite time and energy consuming)
Well, I like measurements... So here's a list
1. Distortion when playing above 90 dB (at 1 m).
2. Step and impulse response.
3. CSD (waterfall).
4. Horisontal and vertical polar response. Maybe 0, 30, 60, 90 deg horisontal and 0, 15, 30, 45 deg vertical.
I'm certain the first one will look spectacular with your speaker, and probably number 4 as well. The other two will be interesting!
One question: You said "Also have a 5ms delay on the left subwoofer which helped with some room issues tremendously."
5 ms sounds like a lot, that's 1.72 m (half a wavelength at 100 Hz). Are you sure that it is in correct phase?
Oh, and I agree that the level below 700 Hz is a little low (in the only curve that you've posted). I (and many others) seem to prefer a slight downward slope in the frequency response.
/Anton
Anton thanks for the reply and kind words!
I guess I just have a lot of energy, I have 4 kids and run a rather large automotive engineering and manufacturing company, so I get time in where I can like between 9pm and midnight or a weekend say here and there. =)
Let me see about running some more measurements and posting them this weekend.
I simple increased the delay until a null around 100hz disappeared and kept it there, bass definitely sounds more full from the listening position, this same strategy has worked well on other speakers I've built and tuned in this room as well. By downward slope you mean down from 20hz to 20khz?
To me I like the sound of a 2db boost above 5khz and definitely a boost below 100hz as well.
Thanks!
Javad
Awesome!
Have you read about the toe in setup for waveguide constant directivity speakers? The toe in is actually more than on axis, the speaker will face the far seat on the couch. This helps widen the sweet spot.
For the above, some have tuned the FR to be flat at 5 or 10 deg off axis, as that's where you will be listening to each speaker.
Another rabbit hole to explore, keep the updates coming!
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Have you read about the toe in setup for waveguide constant directivity speakers? The toe in is actually more than on axis, the speaker will face the far seat on the couch. This helps widen the sweet spot.
For the above, some have tuned the FR to be flat at 5 or 10 deg off axis, as that's where you will be listening to each speaker.
Another rabbit hole to explore, keep the updates coming!
Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Interesting will play with that, I'm going. To do a fresh "from scratch" time on them again just to see where I arrive at, will give that a try.
For the time being I'm also building the 18" subwoofer section for these, this showed up last week! =)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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