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Old 28th February 2016, 07:26 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
I would double check your sim for the Vifa NE180-4 because I don't get a lower F3 than with the Peerless. The NE180-8 however is comparable. My thoughts though are that if you are willing to pay for 2 of the NE's, you might as well take another step up in quality, albeit a small one, and go for just 1 of the ScanSpeak 18W Revelators or the Satori 16P-8.

Quality wise I would start at the Peerless, then the Vifa and then go up a little to the Satori and the Scan (just flip a coin I think between these 2). For bass and cabinet sizes, I've attached a comparison chart using Unibox. SPL levels are the limits @ 1m without exceeding xmax for content above 30Hz. The diagram looks a little blurry so,

Blue = Peerless 21L
Violet = Vifa Ne180-4 10L
Black = Vifa NE180-8 25L
Green = Scan 18W8531G 25L
Red = Satori 16P-8 25L

Just so you know, you don't have to match the impedance of drivers (4ohm with 8ohm is fine as long as SPL levels are compatible when you include baffle step loss and +6dB gain with 2 parallel drivers if applicable) and both parallel and series connections are valid.

Re ribbons: some people really like them. Some people not so much. If you use them, you have to implement them correctly which most importantly means crossing them high enough which means choosing a smaller mid. I plan to try one soon although I haven't yet at this point. My personal thoughts are that although the harmonic distortion may be a little higher at the lower frequencies, ribbons have extremely low diaphragm resonances which makes them sound 'fast' and clean. Really important at the higher frequencies I think.

Go with a dome if you feel so inclined but here are a couple of successful designs that use the Founteks:
https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/speedster
Speaker Design Works
There are also some newish planars that are getting good reviews, the Airborne RT-5002 as just 1 example which maybe could work out for you given how crappy our Canadian dollar is right now, but there are others as well.

The Discovery 15W has a very good reputation, but with a ribbon one of the 10F or the 12W would be a better choice. I should have mentioned the Vifa NE123 before as well.

I really like the look of the Satori MW16P8! Great F3 and a really smooth response. I'm getting 96dB at 3M with these which is a little lower than the NE180W-08 but I "think" I will naturally get a bit more gain due to speaker placement (close to the wall corners) and I "guess" due to there being 2 speakers too Anyway, i've also just measured what dB I typically listen to music at in my living room. Turns out that's 60-65dB's, possibly a little high for movies but not by much. So i'm very comfortable with 96dB at 3M! Plenty of head room

Mid's I really like the Audax HM100Z0 driver. If there's a high cross over point for the tweeter the Audax looks good up 5k. If the cross over is lower the Audax HM130Z0 seems a little smoother.

I do like the very high frequency range of the ribbon drivers. That's kind of what spurred me on to cab upgrade. The Fountek NeoCD1.0 gets a good report on the links you provided. The NeoCD3.0 also looks appealing because off axis is better than the NeoCD1.0. There again the Fountek NeoX3.0 look amazing compared to the other two. I've had a good look around for hybrid tweeters (ribbon and dome) and they seem to be OEM only. I like the idea of the hybrid, best of both worlds in my mind

So i'm settled on the Satori MW16P8

Any thoughts on the mid's and tweeters above? I think i'm (we're close) to a driver selection now
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Old 28th February 2016, 08:57 PM   #22
jReave is offline jReave  Canada
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I think the Satori + Audax HM100Z + one of the Founteks CD's would sound fantastic. I did however just notice that Falcon Acoustic only has 1 of the Audax available at the moment. I think my 2nd choice would be the Scan 10F8424G. And I'd probably say choose whichever Fountek fits your budget best.

Next you need to start doing some simulations. Jeff Bagby's suite of free modeling tools are hard to beat but you need Excel: Jeff Bagby's Software Page

You'll need to create FR and impedance files: New automatic graph tracing program

The Speaker Building Bible has good info stating down in the xo section.

XSim is turning out to be popular for xo's although for normal projects I prefer Jeff's PCD or WinPCD.

I would model baffle diffraction next to figure out your best bets for the tweeter and mid placement on your front baffle.
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Old 3rd March 2016, 07:41 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
I think the Satori + Audax HM100Z + one of the Founteks CD's would sound fantastic. I did however just notice that Falcon Acoustic only has 1 of the Audax available at the moment. I think my 2nd choice would be the Scan 10F8424G. And I'd probably say choose whichever Fountek fits your budget best.

Next you need to start doing some simulations. Jeff Bagby's suite of free modeling tools are hard to beat but you need Excel: Jeff Bagby's Software Page

You'll need to create FR and impedance files: New automatic graph tracing program

The Speaker Building Bible has good info stating down in the xo section.

XSim is turning out to be popular for xo's although for normal projects I prefer Jeff's PCD or WinPCD.

I would model baffle diffraction next to figure out your best bets for the tweeter and mid placement on your front baffle.
Struggling with the crossover. The parts-express.com crossover links are down so I've been trying to figure it out myself. Its easy enough to import the data and setup distances but knowing what capacitors to use is a tall order. I've tried an educated guess but I don't know what the end result should really look like on the graphs. Spoke to Falcon Acoustics about the Audax drivers and apparently Audax have issues with the Aerogel cones at the moment and will not be available for the foreseeable. That's an easy one to solve, as you've listed some other great mid ranges drivers

Any suggestions for a good crossover resource?
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Old 3rd March 2016, 10:13 PM   #24
jReave is offline jReave  Canada
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Yes, the PE forum was down for a bit but it's back up now.

If this is the 1st time that you are going through this simulation process, I highly recommend that you do it with some help or at least guidance. For eg, there are a number of necessary steps involved to create your FR and Z files before you even enter them into a xo program. If the files aren't right, then there is no way your xo can be either.
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Old 4th March 2016, 08:25 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
Yes, the PE forum was down for a bit but it's back up now.

If this is the 1st time that you are going through this simulation process, I highly recommend that you do it with some help or at least guidance. For eg, there are a number of necessary steps involved to create your FR and Z files before you even enter them into a xo program. If the files aren't right, then there is no way your xo can be either.
Looks like the links are still down.
http://www.speakerbuilder.net/web_fi.../phat/hpif.htm

Ok, i'm a little out of sync with the process. I've created the FR and Z files.. I was quite proud of myself, that I'd got them into the XO programs.. Looks like i'll have to go back again
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Old 4th March 2016, 09:11 PM   #26
jReave is offline jReave  Canada
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Try this: The Speaker Building Bible - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum and start in on "Speaker Designing with Software" section.

If you are going with a ribbon tweeter, you will get more accurate diffraction sims with:
Baffle Diffraction Simulator - although the learning curve is a little steep on this one; or
The Edge - although this one doesn't export frd files so you have to trace it and you have to alter the graph's SPL scale in the process. Ask if you go this route.

You need to build the woofer and mid FR and Z files by adding in the box response and the diffraction response. With the tweeter, you only have to add in the diffraction response. Then extract minimum phase from all files and then enter them into the xo program.

The 1st place I would start after tracing the raw FR and Z files, and I would use a 3rd party's measurements if they are available (see Zaph|Audio, including his Blog) is to find the position on the baffle which produces the least diffraction ripple for your tweeter. The mid should then be as close to it as possible and then the woofer is more flexible in terms of placement.

I've recently been helping someone else out with this process:
Xsim crossover critique
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...-part-2-a.html
You should probably find some of the info helpful.
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Old 14th March 2016, 06:49 PM   #27
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Ok, so i'm going to take a slightly different tack on this project and split into two phases.

Phase 1. Driver Selection, Cab adjustments, Stock Crossover and L-Pads
Phase 2. Bespoke crossover and fine tuning - at some point in the future

My rational for this is; i'm currently struggling with the bespoke crossover side of things and i'd like to see where I get with my current understanding of speaker design.. Also i'm a little impatient to upgrade my cabs

I've narrowed the drivers and crossover down to the following.

Tweeter = SATORI TW29RN-B
MID = SB12MNRX25-4
Woofer = SATORI MW16P-4
Crossover = Dayton XO3W-375/3K 3-Way

Note that there's no ribbon tweeter in phase 1. That's mainly because the other drivers are 4-ohm and the stock crossover wouldn't be up to the job (i think). I plan to "tune" the levels by ear using the L-Pads, which I hope will give a good result. Box dimensions etc should be pretty much spot on based on my understanding of how to calculate this.

I know this is probably a little unconventional However would really appreciate any thoughts on the driver selection and the crossover?
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Old 15th March 2016, 12:43 AM   #28
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Spark010,
IMHO, you are cooking with gas by working with jReave. If you remain patient through the design/ simulation process; in probably less then a week or two that side of things will be complete. Then its on to the actual build. I'm actual at that point currently. There is probably not a bigger beginner on this site then myself and I have somehow managed to navigate through the programs that jReave suggested. Its your call of course to go with generic crossovers, but my advise would be go the custom designed route and achieve the best SQ possible the first time around. Just my 2 cents.


Best Regards,
Rich
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Old 15th March 2016, 01:50 AM   #29
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The only issue here is that the SB midrange you're using is nowhere near as clean/linear as the Satori driver you've chosen as your bass driver, even throughout the midrange.

The Satori has one of the best motors in the world for midrange distortion whereas the standard SB driver is merely average. It's not even a good performer by SB standards as SB, for some reason, chose not to include copper rings in the motor and thus it has much poorer performance than say the SB15 series of drivers.

The main issue here is that you're using a very capable tweeter that has no problems in crossing over low enough to the Satori to make the SB12 pretty pointless and to be honest with it in the system linearity will be lower. But of course you'd be losing out on the three way advantages.

A better idea would be to use the MW13P as your mid driver or something like the Eton 3-400/A8/25 MG. Both of these would be a far better choice if somewhat more expensive.

This then brings up the choice of the Satori as a bass driver. The MW16P was specifically designed to excel at midrange performance. This isn't to say its bass performance is lacking but there are better options here. Drivers with more linear excursion (Klippel testing has found the Satori to be lacking vs what it's spec says), giving greater output potential and lower bass distortion.

To me the point of going three way is to exploit the fact that now the midrange and bass are coming from two separate drivers and to pick the drivers based off of the job that they are going to perform. This means picking a very clean midange driver that is usually smaller in diameter and one that is certainly as clean as a good mid bass. Then to pick a bass driver that might not have the cleanest midrange or smoothest response up high, but one that works very well down low.

You can see measurements for the Eton driver here

??-????????

Where you can see that it is very clean from about 300Hz up to 4kHz.

Vs

The SB driver here

http://zaphaudio.com/temp/SBAcoustic...NRX25-4-HD.gif

Notice the rising third and fifth order harmonics.

From a bass perspective the RS180 is cleaner than the Satori and significantly less expensive. A SEAS Excel W18E/EX would be a good choice too as would an Usher 8945A. You can see measurements for all of these on Zaph's website and blog.

I know this throws your design on its head a little but using the TW29RN + MW13P would give you all the goodness from the SB Satori line and also use it where it shines (I've tested the MW13P and it's every bit as good as its bigger brother). If you need the extra voltage sensitivity of a 4 ohm driver then the RS180-4 would be the logical choice otherwise the 8945A could be considered too. Both of those bass units offer more capabilities down low than the MW16 which is what you should be aiming for in my opinion.
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Old 15th March 2016, 11:04 AM   #30
Draki is offline Draki  Macedonia
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quote>>>I've narrowed the drivers and crossover down to the following.

Tweeter = SATORI TW29RN-B
MID = SB12MNRX25-4
Woofer = SATORI MW16P-4
Crossover = Dayton XO3W-375/3K 3-Way<<<

You are underusing MW16P - it is quite sufficient to use it with the TW29RN, doesn't need a midrange.
Google "Kairos and Continuum three ways" by Jeff Bagby ......
Also forget off the shelf crossover.
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