OK that's better. The design is for just the mid to be reversed in polarity. Try that out for a while and see how you like it.
The speakers are rather low in sensitivity but that's what you get when you're only running 1 smaller woofer in a 3-way and going for full baffle step compensation, so yes, you can expect to be pushing your amp a little harder if your other speaker was higher in sensitivity. But you should be getting more bass I hope, and better quality too, but if you are finding there is too much, then you can decrease the series resistors on the mid and the tweeter and that will simultaneously decrease the perception of bass and improve the sensitivity a little bit. You might try a decrease of up to around 3ohm for each driver and see how that goes.
It's possible there is another little thing happening whereby a speaker with more distortion will sound louder than it is (ie, your old ones), or in other words, with a cleaner speaker you may be playing it louder than before but you don't really realize it because there isn't so much distortion.
As I say, try them for a little while and get to know them better. Then you can measure again and compare that to your subjective reactions. Maybe toy with the resistors as you see fit. One thing I didn't mention previously is that if you aren't playing these too loud, then you might prefer a bit of a smiley face curve, so with the mids just a little lower than the bass and highs. Then if need be you can look at what spare parts you have on hand and we can try to tweek a couple of little things if you want.
Happy listening. Hope you don't have any other important things to do right now.
The speakers are rather low in sensitivity but that's what you get when you're only running 1 smaller woofer in a 3-way and going for full baffle step compensation, so yes, you can expect to be pushing your amp a little harder if your other speaker was higher in sensitivity. But you should be getting more bass I hope, and better quality too, but if you are finding there is too much, then you can decrease the series resistors on the mid and the tweeter and that will simultaneously decrease the perception of bass and improve the sensitivity a little bit. You might try a decrease of up to around 3ohm for each driver and see how that goes.
It's possible there is another little thing happening whereby a speaker with more distortion will sound louder than it is (ie, your old ones), or in other words, with a cleaner speaker you may be playing it louder than before but you don't really realize it because there isn't so much distortion.
As I say, try them for a little while and get to know them better. Then you can measure again and compare that to your subjective reactions. Maybe toy with the resistors as you see fit. One thing I didn't mention previously is that if you aren't playing these too loud, then you might prefer a bit of a smiley face curve, so with the mids just a little lower than the bass and highs. Then if need be you can look at what spare parts you have on hand and we can try to tweek a couple of little things if you want.
Happy listening. Hope you don't have any other important things to do right now.
I've just simmed removing 3ohm from the tweeter and 5ohm from the Mid and it looks pretty good
I'll have to order in a couple of resistors for the mid but the tweeter-tweak is very easy to achieve.
Very interesting comment on distortion and volume! I'll keep that in mind
Thank you again I'll hopefully have them up and running by Thursday and yeah i should be doing other things... but..
I'll have to order in a couple of resistors for the mid but the tweeter-tweak is very easy to achieve.
Very interesting comment on distortion and volume! I'll keep that in mind
Thank you again
I'll hopefully have them up and running by Thursday and yeah i should be doing other things... but.. Sounds good.
Maybe try both of them without the tweeks first. Something else to note is that your old speakers might not have had the best balanced FR but that is what you are used to. So anything new is going to sound different, maybe weird at 1st in comparison and that's why I say try them out for a while, get used to them and then start to change things to discover your preferences.
One other thing to note is that I think with your placement, 1 speaker is close to a wall and the other is more out in free space so this will affect the bass differently and so it's the balance of the 2 of them that you need to get right.
Maybe try both of them without the tweeks first. Something else to note is that your old speakers might not have had the best balanced FR but that is what you are used to. So anything new is going to sound different, maybe weird at 1st in comparison and that's why I say try them out for a while, get used to them and then start to change things to discover your preferences.
One other thing to note is that I think with your placement, 1 speaker is close to a wall and the other is more out in free space so this will affect the bass differently and so it's the balance of the 2 of them that you need to get right.
Well I would just add or subtract resistors but then again, I wouldn't hard solder them to start off with because I know I'm going to want to play with them a bit. I've got a little collection of alligator clips that I use for temporary connections but even twisting leads together can work if you are gentle with them. But be careful with that because too much and some of the leads may fall right out of the component.
Usually the walls are lined with foam or heavy felt or some kind of absorptive insulation. Any more stuffing inside the cabinet is likely to start reducing the output from the port, which in some cases is not necessarily a bad thing.
I do like the idea of using some form of variable resistor to help tweak things. However after looking into it, the costs are quite prohibitive. e.g. audio grade fixed resistors are £1-£2 where l-pad's or rheostat's are circa £50.
Just to make sure - your measurement is with the mic about 1m more or less on the tweeter axis with a short window of 3 - 5msec? I'm not sure why you are showing a flat response below 100Hz. A little suggestion would be to continue to repeat your measurements until you get exactly the same response each time.
As we continue here, post a xo schematic from XSim so that I'm aware of the changes you are making.
Re the balance, it looks like you need to tame the tweeter some more. Add some more series resistance.
Re the mid, it actually looks a little high as well so if it sounds muted/muffled that sounds more like a quality issue than quantity. So I'm wondering if the mid chamber is overstuffed. I'm not actually sure what you did for stuffing but you might try removing it and comparing.
When making changes, 1 thing that I've found that helps is to make fairly large changes to start off with and compare because that really helps you to identify what it is that the change is affecting. Then once you're attuned to that, then pull back bit by bit until things sound just about right, maybe somewhere in the middle of the 2 extremes or maybe somewhere closer to 1 extreme or the other.
It might also help for me to know what spare parts you have on hand to work with. Perhaps including items from your previous speakers' xo too?
Did you add any insulation to the woofer chamber btw?
As we continue here, post a xo schematic from XSim so that I'm aware of the changes you are making.
Re the balance, it looks like you need to tame the tweeter some more. Add some more series resistance.
Re the mid, it actually looks a little high as well so if it sounds muted/muffled that sounds more like a quality issue than quantity. So I'm wondering if the mid chamber is overstuffed. I'm not actually sure what you did for stuffing but you might try removing it and comparing.
When making changes, 1 thing that I've found that helps is to make fairly large changes to start off with and compare because that really helps you to identify what it is that the change is affecting. Then once you're attuned to that, then pull back bit by bit until things sound just about right, maybe somewhere in the middle of the 2 extremes or maybe somewhere closer to 1 extreme or the other.
It might also help for me to know what spare parts you have on hand to work with. Perhaps including items from your previous speakers' xo too?
Did you add any insulation to the woofer chamber btw?
Hi jReave, thank you for all the suggestions. I've implemented a few things and the results are looking a lot better.
I'm not sure why the woofer is so flat.. I can't find a window option in HolmIpulse?
1. Removed BAF wadding from the mid chamber. Sound dampening materials still in place.
2. Added a little BAF wadding to the bottom of the woofer chamber.
3. No insulation in the woofer enclosure
4. Mid reversed polarity
5. Replaced R3 (11 ohm) to 6.8 ohm
6. Replaced R8 (3.5 ohm) to 1 ohm
I'm pretty happy with the FR graph and it sounds very nice too!
What do you think?
The two images are the difference between R8 set at 1R or 2R
I'm not sure why the woofer is so flat.. I can't find a window option in HolmIpulse?
1. Removed BAF wadding from the mid chamber. Sound dampening materials still in place.
2. Added a little BAF wadding to the bottom of the woofer chamber.
3. No insulation in the woofer enclosure
4. Mid reversed polarity
5. Replaced R3 (11 ohm) to 6.8 ohm
6. Replaced R8 (3.5 ohm) to 1 ohm
I'm pretty happy with the FR graph and it sounds very nice too!
What do you think?
The two images are the difference between R8 set at 1R or 2R
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So glad they're sounding better. Good job. 
At the stage you're at now, the final arbiter are your ears. It doesn't really matter what the graphs look like - if you like the sound of it better 1 way vs the other, then that is the correct way for you in this room with the speakers set up where you have them and sitting where you do. Don't forget that when your ears are listening, you are hearing more than just the on-axis response which is only what you are seeing in the measurements. Mind you 1 of the reasons I chose 2nd order filters all the way around is because they produced a very flat power response as well, or in other words the on-axis and off-axis responses should be pretty similar.
I think of the measurements now as just a tool, as a way to give you a visual reference for the changes you are making, but again, it's your ears, your subjective response that should be making the final call.
I probably have 2 more resistors that I suggest you can play with. We'll start with the 1 that focuses on that little peak at about 2500Hz, R10 13ohm. Reduce it by a large amount to start off with, listen and then adjust at will. Measure if and when you feel like it.
Btw, patience is your friend here. This final fine tuning and tweaking stage should take some time. Like, I'm talking a number of weeks if not months for some people. You've now got it pretty much into the ballpark, so live with it for a week or so and then make just a small change of an ohm or so and live with that for another week or until you feel confident in which version (or combination of versions) you like better. Also just in case you haven't figured it out yet, make only 1 change at a time.
It sounds like it's finally time to start enjoying the music again. Congratulations.
At the stage you're at now, the final arbiter are your ears. It doesn't really matter what the graphs look like - if you like the sound of it better 1 way vs the other, then that is the correct way for you in this room with the speakers set up where you have them and sitting where you do. Don't forget that when your ears are listening, you are hearing more than just the on-axis response which is only what you are seeing in the measurements. Mind you 1 of the reasons I chose 2nd order filters all the way around is because they produced a very flat power response as well, or in other words the on-axis and off-axis responses should be pretty similar.
I think of the measurements now as just a tool, as a way to give you a visual reference for the changes you are making, but again, it's your ears, your subjective response that should be making the final call.
I probably have 2 more resistors that I suggest you can play with. We'll start with the 1 that focuses on that little peak at about 2500Hz, R10 13ohm. Reduce it by a large amount to start off with, listen and then adjust at will. Measure if and when you feel like it.
Btw, patience is your friend here. This final fine tuning and tweaking stage should take some time. Like, I'm talking a number of weeks if not months for some people. You've now got it pretty much into the ballpark, so live with it for a week or so and then make just a small change of an ohm or so and live with that for another week or until you feel confident in which version (or combination of versions) you like better. Also just in case you haven't figured it out yet, make only 1 change at a time.
It sounds like it's finally time to start enjoying the music again.
Congratulations.The loud speaker gods are smiling and so am I Really enjoying the sounds they are producing, even with the little bump at 2.5Khz. I'm going to live with this setup for a few months time and then revisit the bump and fine tuning when life is less manic The bass isn't as overbearing as i'd feared, in fact it seems very smooth and pleasing to the ears.
Agree with the measurements and usage. My target has always been a flat FR but its my ears that are the real test. I will have to apply some room correction for due to the position of the left speaker. The right speaker's FR doesn't change significantly up against the wall vs when I was measuring away from the wall by a couple of meters.
Here's a few photos of the end product and my FR measurements before placement. I'm happy with the L&R FR looking so close to each other!
So project not complete, just yet.. but a massive milestone achieved! A huge thank you again jReave and everyone else who helped out. There's no way i'd have got to this point without your assistance and patience
Time to listen to some music and dream about another loudspeaker build
Really enjoying the sounds they are producing, even with the little bump at 2.5Khz. I'm going to live with this setup for a few months time and then revisit the bump and fine tuning when life is less manic The bass isn't as overbearing as i'd feared, in fact it seems very smooth and pleasing to the ears.Agree with the measurements and usage. My target has always been a flat FR but its my ears that are the real test. I will have to apply some room correction for due to the position of the left speaker. The right speaker's FR doesn't change significantly up against the wall vs when I was measuring away from the wall by a couple of meters.
Here's a few photos of the end product and my FR measurements before placement. I'm happy with the L&R FR looking so close to each other!
So project not complete, just yet.. but a massive milestone achieved! A huge thank you again jReave and everyone else who helped out. There's no way i'd have got to this point without your assistance and patience
Time to listen to some music and dream about another loudspeaker build
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That is just firkin awesome!! Those look absolutely fantastic. Very hard to tell that those are not the original speakers in that last photo. Pat yourself on the back and pour yourself your favorite beverage - you deserve it!
Good call, take a break, listen for a while and return with fresh energy and perspective when it's more suitable.
Well done my friend.
Good call, take a break, listen for a while and return with fresh energy and perspective when it's more suitable.
This made me laugh out loud.Time to listen to some music and dream about another loudspeaker build
Well done my friend.
That is just firkin awesome!! Those look absolutely fantastic. Very hard to tell that those are not the original speakers in that last photo. Pat yourself on the back and pour yourself your favorite beverage - you deserve it!
Good call, take a break, listen for a while and return with fresh energy and perspective when it's more suitable.
This made me laugh out loud.
Well done my friend.
Thank you jReave.. You can take a lot of credit for their awesomeness my friend
Lots learned and still learning. The calibrated mic came in very handy for manually tuning the room. I've previously just relied on auto calibration
Good to hear I made you laugh!
Reckon i'll try concentric / co-axial for the tweeter/mid next time.. Should be a good technical challenge Looking forward to seeing your project updates once the weather improves.
I found this website to be really useful when finding out information about different materials and what materials are best for certain applications.
FFKM Seal Material | Polymer Material Selection | FFKM Seals
They also offer quotes if you ring them up. Hope this helps
FFKM Seal Material | Polymer Material Selection | FFKM Seals
They also offer quotes if you ring them up. Hope this helps
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