Do you have experience with the 12p80nd, and TPL150 ?
If not, then i think your assertion that the 12p80nd getting narrow, and TPL150 nasty on dispersion pattern is just based on hearsay nonsense, or technical mambojambo on paper, which in practice means nothing. If you add further channels, you lose one of the major advantages of this combo, namely simplicity and synergy/integration, and you avoid all the headage of complex crossover setup. The only thing you need, is a sub below 50hz, best a bass line array, and you are done.
Angelo,
Would you have Inside measurements at 15/30/60° and listening position ?
I am curious to have a look at the patern behavior between 800 and the XO (around 1500-1600 in yours iirc) ? The beaming of a 12" can worry most of us in such project for the enthusiast of good soundstages and forgiven XOs... Not talking about a progressive -6 dB bafle step below 800/600 Hz !
I looked for on the web and saw no phase measurement of this combo unluckilly ! At the price of the units it can be a risk for most of us to try while a 2 way filter is attractiv on the paper !
Do you think a short front horn à la VOTT could help to winn few dB and a better directivity (wider) ?
Would you have Inside measurements at 15/30/60° and listening position ?
I am curious to have a look at the patern behavior between 800 and the XO (around 1500-1600 in yours iirc) ? The beaming of a 12" can worry most of us in such project for the enthusiast of good soundstages and forgiven XOs... Not talking about a progressive -6 dB bafle step below 800/600 Hz !
I looked for on the web and saw no phase measurement of this combo unluckilly ! At the price of the units it can be a risk for most of us to try while a 2 way filter is attractiv on the paper !
Do you think a short front horn à la VOTT could help to winn few dB and a better directivity (wider) ?
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Yes actually I've been listening to BD15 woofer (from BD-Design) and 12P80ND and TPL-150H for past two years in prototype boxes. since 6-7 months ago I also had 12P80ND-N (new version) and replaced it with the older version and to my ear its sounds a little bit better. I have not measured anything yet as I was busy and I rarely listened to it more than an hour weekly. to my humble opinion 12P80ND beaming after ~1.5khz is an issue but you many not get it serious as you sit in the on-axis sweet spot. the TPL-150H is amazing, neutral, detailed and lush. it make whole the sound heavier. sound stage is gigantic and spacious but all these if it's pointed to my ear. everything will vanish in the night if I walk 2-3 meters from the center chair so I think TPL-150H will benefit from a super tweeter. Fostex T500 would be my choice if I could rob a bank
Eldam
i made measurements, and posted them at the topic of which midrange to use with TPL150. Sorry , i am too lazy right not to search on which page.....
I had beaming issues and thought the narrow sweet spot of my LeCleach midrange horns were disturbing, but with the Beyma combo that problem is gone. Its much more forgiving, if you move around, or do not sit exactly in the sweet spot. The correct thing would be anyway to line up all drivers in a vertical row. Since i have the horns still in my living room, thats not possible. Even so, i am satisfied, no complains.
i made measurements, and posted them at the topic of which midrange to use with TPL150. Sorry , i am too lazy right not to search on which page.....
I had beaming issues and thought the narrow sweet spot of my LeCleach midrange horns were disturbing, but with the Beyma combo that problem is gone. Its much more forgiving, if you move around, or do not sit exactly in the sweet spot. The correct thing would be anyway to line up all drivers in a vertical row. Since i have the horns still in my living room, thats not possible. Even so, i am satisfied, no complains.
BD15 vs. 12p80nd?
Hi dave,
I do not want to hi-jack the thread, but I would be very interested in hearing how the BD15s compare to the Beyma 12p80NDs. Thanks a lot!
Best regards
Peter
Hi dave,
I do not want to hi-jack the thread, but I would be very interested in hearing how the BD15s compare to the Beyma 12p80NDs. Thanks a lot!
Best regards
Peter
Yes actually I've been listening to BD15 woofer (from BD-Design) and 12P80ND and TPL-150H for past two years in prototype boxes. since 6-7 months ago I also had 12P80ND-N (new version) and replaced it with the older version and to my ear its sounds a little bit better. I have not measured anything yet as I was busy and I rarely listened to it more than an hour weekly. to my humble opinion 12P80ND beaming after ~1.5khz is an issue but you many not get it serious as you sit in the on-axis sweet spot. the TPL-150H is amazing, neutral, detailed and lush. it make whole the sound heavier. sound stage is gigantic and spacious but all these if it's pointed to my ear. everything will vanish in the night if I walk 2-3 meters from the center chair so I think TPL-150H will benefit from a super tweeter. Fostex T500 would be my choice if I could rob a bank
Hi Peter,
I used BD15 as woofer, 12P80ND (and 12P80ND-N afterwards) as a middle range and TPL-150H as tweeter. those two driver were used in different applications so comparing them is not a point here. but I can comment on BD15. this woofer doesn't go that much low. not lower than 37-38hz in internal spaces. but it's the best-sounding woofer/mid-bass driver I've ever heard with well defined and articulate bass with super fast transition speed. I've heard many good things from this woofer.
I still don't know what to do. I tend to use 12P80ND-V2 with TPL-150H but the 12P80ND-V2 beaming is a concern to me. I'm gonna active cross it I don't know if I can cross the TPL-150H with 24 dB/oct, LR4 at around 1500hz instead of 2khz. I think in that case the beaming of 12" midrange will be less important as I think it will get seriously narrow afterwards. another idea is to add a Faital Pro 8PR155 from 500hz up to 2khz and the final speaker will be a four way. any idea?
YOU SHOULD TRY: Time aligned 1,500Hz LR4/LR4 crossover between 12P80ND-V2 and TPL-150H
I think you can finish this design decathlon with a gold medal. angeloitacare's measurements of the 12P80ND show ~80-degree polar pattern at 1400-1500Hz, and Beyma's measurements of the 12P80BD-V2 show beaming but no cone breakup at 1500Hz. The LR4 slope will help reduce lower frequency TPL-150H "diaphragm strain", and higher frequency 12P80ND cone resonances(with a clever sealed box).
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If the -mic measured- physical time-difference between the TPL-150H and 12P80ND is only a few mm's you might consider a slightly deeper baffle cut - with a beveled edge. This may sound more natural over different listening distances and angles than a 1-angle DSP delay tweek.
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I posted a sim of the 12P80ND in a sealed box which illustrated upper frequency resonances from a "rectangle" volume, and no resonances when the internal bracing added a rear sealed stuffed exponential taper behind the main sealed volume. B&W and Vivid published white papers.
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Low Xover = Baffle step. In a Qt~0.6 sealed box, the 12P80ND is F3 ~180-200Hz, with very low Dopler distortion. If you design a big-box cabinet(or stack-up boxes) with ~200Hz baffle step, one complex DSP adjustable woof-mid-baffle crossover can cover both. And, if you change the speaker-wall distances you only have to tweek one DSP filter.
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With a <200Hz woofer Xover, BIG lower cost woofers like the Peavey LoRider18 or Faital 18FH500 would be a better solution than the BD15. With 18" woofers your cabinet might mimic: Daniel Hertz M1, BMF-1; big verion of Nelson Pass PS1 Nextel; voluptuous round curved box (see thread: Hi-Eff 3-way speakers choice help
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/287674-hi-eff-3-way-speakers-choice-help-3.html
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The BD15 specs seem ideal for the musical - midbass in a 3-way with a 2" (or coaxial) compression driver crossed ~600Hz. Your next build with JMLC-320 horn?
Oh thanks man for the input. very good ideas I had some of them in mind. now you got me out of maze.
HI LineSources,
What do you call a clever sealed cabinet ? deeper than widther ? Or do you talk about the volume ? (around 55 liters?) ? Or braced/non // walls ?
I was asking myself looking at Angelo setups if someone thinked to a fiil in medium driver filter (1 octave only) and if it's a good idea !
Let say for instance a 8" (be it the BC8PE21 or the Faital advised sometimes) fill in between the 12" at 1 000 K hZ (I don't remember the polar map of the Beyma but reccorded it somewhere when you linket it) and 2 000 K Hz for the Beyma ? Or this new carbon 6" from 750 to 1700 (to avoid the 1800 Hz odds harmonics peak of the datasheet-high spl http://www.beyma.com/products/lowmidfrequency/106MCF20ND8)
Something to consider for Dave is a tunned sealed enclosure for the TPL150 to reduce the 1500 Hz harchness - deeper 1 liter enclosure & why not in foam)
I asked myself as well what is the bafle step result of this 12" on a 15" wild bafle :where are the - 6 dB loss aera ?
Also the new Beyma 15" seems nice : LOW & MID FREQUENCY 15WRS400 | Beyma
Same scenario but 100-800 Hz XO ? then 800-1600 or more 8" fill in driver (or the new 6" Beyma carbon) ? 18" below as you writed!
A new nice 12" as well : LOW & MID FREQUENCY 12MCS500 | Beyma
What do you call a clever sealed cabinet ? deeper than widther ? Or do you talk about the volume ? (around 55 liters?) ? Or braced/non // walls ?
I was asking myself looking at Angelo setups if someone thinked to a fiil in medium driver filter (1 octave only) and if it's a good idea !
Let say for instance a 8" (be it the BC8PE21 or the Faital advised sometimes) fill in between the 12" at 1 000 K hZ (I don't remember the polar map of the Beyma but reccorded it somewhere when you linket it) and 2 000 K Hz for the Beyma ? Or this new carbon 6" from 750 to 1700 (to avoid the 1800 Hz odds harmonics peak of the datasheet-high spl
http://www.beyma.com/products/lowmidfrequency/106MCF20ND8)Something to consider for Dave is a tunned sealed enclosure for the TPL150 to reduce the 1500 Hz harchness - deeper 1 liter enclosure & why not in foam)
I asked myself as well what is the bafle step result of this 12" on a 15" wild bafle :where are the - 6 dB loss aera ?
Also the new Beyma 15" seems nice : LOW & MID FREQUENCY 15WRS400 | Beyma
Same scenario but 100-800 Hz XO ? then 800-1600 or more 8" fill in driver (or the new 6" Beyma carbon) ? 18" below as you writed!
A new nice 12" as well : LOW & MID FREQUENCY 12MCS500 | Beyma
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I just decided to add a Fostex T500 AMKII super tweeter crossed @8-9khz. I'm doing this as I want to prevent the TPL-150H beaming at higher frequencies and as I think TPL-150H lack a little bit the top end sparkles which will make it sound a little bit clinical although the spaciousness it adds to the sound is immediately audible. I hope I can make a better speaker using Fostex T500. I'm gonna run TPL-150H and T500 on the same channel and I'll add a HF filter to T500. I think I have to take care of TPL-150H LP filter. it's a tweaking job I have to measure and hear what kind of HF and LP filter are needed and how much overlap do I need
I know it may seem funny but a friend of mine insists to build a WMTMW based on Beyma drivers and this is the first sketch. the result may be interesting to many of you guys who have been following TPL/12P80 threads so I hope I can have your ideas about 18" woofer.
2x TPL-200H
2x 12P80ND-V2
2x 18" woofers
I have Faital Pro 18FH500 in stock and I have access to all Beyma products. I Beyma 18P1200ND/N seems promising. any idea?
it's gonna be 195cm tall and 50cm width and depth
2x TPL-200H
2x 12P80ND-V2
2x 18" woofers
I have Faital Pro 18FH500 in stock and I have access to all Beyma products. I Beyma 18P1200ND/N seems promising. any idea?
it's gonna be 195cm tall and 50cm width and depth
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Damned, this is a Dunlavy !
Why not going the path LineSources writted above ? Could it be possible with a ywo way around the 1500 Hz to make an asymetric crossover to kill even more the resonance of the TPLH at this frequency (while StiggErik or ANgeloItacare say it's not hearable in home listening environment due to the too low spl ?!) )
Why not going the path LineSources writted above ? Could it be possible with a ywo way around the 1500 Hz to make an asymetric crossover to kill even more the resonance of the TPLH at this frequency (while StiggErik or ANgeloItacare say it's not hearable in home listening environment due to the too low spl ?!) )
It's just another speaker! I'm working on the first speaker that LineSources brought to a conclusion. I'm working on that speaker and I'm not gonna make any change to it except I may use TPL-200H instead of TPL-150H.
this WMTMW is another speaker my friend asked me to build for him after he heard the sound of the first speaker prototype.
I tend to keep my worthy 12P80NDs safe in the warehouse. four 12P80NDs is just too much as I only have 8-10 pieces in stock. after all two 12" midrange in a high fidelity speaker? really?!
Faital Pro 10PR410 is a worth checking:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I think it's a good match to TPL-200H. smaller driver will get narrow higher.
I'm still eager to hear your ideas about 18" woofers. 15FH500s are not bad I think.
I'm sorry I have no experience with 18" . I rate very high the advices of LineSources. They are always "fire and forgett" as some say (hit the goal if you prefer without worry about the good result).
In a big room enough >40/50 m², I will maybe try in your shoes 18" in line array but drivers not so close to the floor and ceilling (so middle centred). Look for instance what StigErik did with its bass array here with searching function of DIYAUDIO. Or laterral push-pull for enclosure odd harmonics and vibration cancelation as LineSources advised often ? It's up to you, your energy and skill
The idea is to have both a lot of Sd to improve transcient in the low end while the vertical array help a little for room modes, an other elegant path is maybe distributed sub in the room à la Docteur Gedes.
I look forward to read your results about the Beyma 12 and the TPLH
).In a big room enough >40/50 m², I will maybe try in your shoes 18" in line array but drivers not so close to the floor and ceilling (so middle centred). Look for instance what StigErik did with its bass array here with searching function of DIYAUDIO. Or laterral push-pull for enclosure odd harmonics and vibration cancelation as LineSources advised often ? It's up to you, your energy and skill
The idea is to have both a lot of Sd to improve transcient in the low end while the vertical array help a little for room modes, an other elegant path is maybe distributed sub in the room à la Docteur Gedes.
I look forward to read your results about the Beyma 12 and the TPLH
It's just another speaker! I'm working on the first speaker that LineSources brought to a conclusion. I'm working on that speaker and I'm not gonna make any change to it except I may use TPL-200H instead of TPL-150H.
this WMTMW is another speaker my friend asked me to build for him after he heard the sound of the first speaker prototype.
I tend to keep my worthy 12P80NDs safe in the warehouse. four 12P80NDs is just too much as I only have 8-10 pieces in stock. after all two 12" midrange in a high fidelity speaker? really?!
Faital Pro 10PR410 is a worth checking:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I think it's a good match to TPL-200H. smaller driver will get narrow higher.
I'm still eager to hear your ideas about 18" woofers. 15FH500s are not bad I think.
Interesting driver indeed. How high/low are you intending to use the 10"? I wish it didn't have the hickup at 2.5kHz.
I'm working with a TPL-150H and considered going the direct radiator route. I thought the 12P80Nd was too large from a beaming point of view and considered 10" and 8". One attractive 10" candidate in my view is 18Sound 10NDA610 if, like in my case, you were looking at a low xo around 400Hz. Rated at 103dB sensitivity.
For the time being I decided to experiment with cone driven horns, but I haven't ditched the direct radiator yet so I'm very interested in your project.
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