Theory about speaker+box resonance - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 19th February 2004, 10:23 PM   #11
Svante is offline Svante  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
Svante's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Stockholm
Quote:
Originally posted by azira


However, putting a speaker into a box produces some kind of high-pass like response. I can't find the theory/math behind this.
Ahh... That is easy. Sound pressure is proportional to cone acceleration. In mechanical analogies the cone velocity is the equivalent to the current. So a mechanical series resonance circuit would be bandpass for the *velocity*. Differentiate this and you have the acceleration. Differentiation corresponsds to a tilt of +6dB/oct. So the bandpass will be a highpass. Voilá!
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th February 2004, 10:35 PM   #12
azira is offline azira  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Near Seattle
Quote:
Originally posted by sreten


Sealed box is 2nd order high pass filter theory.

sreten.
I see it now. Very interesting, I will need to digest this...

Thank you very much sreten, Svante, you are both very knowledgeable here.

I just did a sim...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg filter.jpg (42.1 KB, 390 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2004, 12:26 AM   #13
Ron E is offline Ron E  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Ron E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: USA, MN
Quote:
Originally posted by azira


The math is not the problem.

I'm a analog/digital electronics engineer. I've read some articles on modeling resonances as LRC circuits because they behave similarily so I was trying to use my circuit knowledge to better understand speaker behavior.

I'm trying to understand how to go from fig 1 -> fig 2. In a standard resonance circuit, the transfer function (and therefore freq response) slopes off on either side at the same rate (dB/dec). However, putting a speaker into a box produces some kind of high-pass like response. I can't find the theory/math behind this.


Dynamic simulation is a major interest of mine. The theory developed in the books I cited (I own them, too) is the hardest data I know of, and that is what you said you were looking for. I gave you the Resources you need. I was not willing to waste time spouting equations or theories you might not understand. A true understanding of this will not be had from a forum discussion, although this might be a fair place to come if you had questions. You'll find someday there's nothing like going to the source when you want results.

If you want a web resource, check out the Benson style Thiele/Small model that is developed by Robert Bullock in a windows help file format....Google for it.
__________________
Our species needs, and deserves, a citizenry with minds wide awake and a basic understanding of how the world works. --Carl Sagan
Armaments, universal debt, and planned obsolescence--those are the three pillars of Western prosperity. —Aldous Huxley
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2004, 04:11 AM   #14
azira is offline azira  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Near Seattle
Quote:
Originally posted by Ron E


I was not willing to waste time spouting equations or theories you might not understand. A true understanding of this will not be had from a forum discussion, although this might be a fair place to come if you had questions.

Fair enough. On the other hand, I'm not willing to dump $100 on the first book that someone on this same forum says is the definitive guide to this or that. Same coin.
I agree I won't find the definitive answer, but atleast I might get a start with a direction to start exploring.
Anyway, only way to raise the educational level at which this forum is discussed is to contribute at that level.
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2004, 04:47 AM   #15
f4ier is offline f4ier  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
f4ier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Sydney
Both books mentioned by Ron are a must-have for anyone interested in loudspeaker theory. I have a copy of the Acoustics book, it helped a great deal when I was making the current versions of my speaker programs; particularly SubSim.

There are so many texts form the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society. You may also be interested in the book "Introduction to Electroacoustics and Audio Amplifier Design" by W.M. Leach Jr. whose JAES contributions I found most informative.
__________________
Crossover/Subwoofer Simulator
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2004, 11:44 AM   #16
Svante is offline Svante  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
Svante's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Stockholm
Quote:
Originally posted by azira

I just did a sim...
Try to simulate the circuit below instead. All parameters are T/S parameters, RML is the mechanical radiation resistance:

RML=(Ss*w)^2 * rho0 /(2*pi*c)

Note that it is dependent on the frequency squared.

Simulate this and you should see the driver impedance as the impedance connected to the voltage generator, and if you can find the *power* dissipated in RML, you have the HP function!
Attached Images
File Type: gif speakerimp.gif (3.5 KB, 237 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2004, 06:03 PM   #17
diyAudio Member
 
Pjotr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Netherlands
Hi,

If it helps to understand a loudspeaker unit, long time ago I made an electromechanical model to simulate in Pspice. Basically it is a second order mass-spring system. The acoustical output is proportional to the acceleration.

For a closed box, the springiness of the air in the box acts in parallel to the springiness (compliance) of the speaker itself. For a BR the speaker is coupled to a Helmholz resonator formed by the springiness of the air in the box acting on the BR-port and the air-mass in the BR port.

Cheers
Attached Images
File Type: gif basic_ls.gif (4.7 KB, 227 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 20th February 2004, 07:58 PM   #18
Svante is offline Svante  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
Svante's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Stockholm
Nice simulation! This is the Physisists way of doing it.

The electrical engineer might do it like this, using electric-mechanic-acoustic analogies. To the left currents are flowing through the cables and voltages appear over the components, in thew middle velocities "flow" through the components and forces appear over them, to the left, volume flows flow through the components and pressures appear over the components.
The diagram is the equivalent of a loudspeaker. We feed it a voltage (us) and a current (is) in the electric domain, and out of it we get a volume flow (Qs) and a pressure ((Ps) in the acoustic domain.

T=Bl and the symbol below the T is a gyrator, Ss is the cone area and the symbol below is an ideal transformer.
Attached Images
File Type: gif speakerdiagram.gif (3.1 KB, 206 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st February 2004, 03:44 AM   #19
diyAudio Member
 
a31_ford's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Guys, Guys, can I get my 2 cents in here ??? (OK, 3 cents)

In live band renforcement (live sound) in smaller venue's we would use a thing called an "iso-box" for the lead & rythm gutairs an iso-box was this, a micropone & a speaker in an foam lined box (yes the speaker was baffled) but no "outside sound", as in nothing could be heard outside the box (totally inclosed).

Why you ask ? well, the thing is , that it gave us a "controled space" to aquire the "screaming" lead solo's from, AND a consistant source for basing the rest of the "room sound" from (bar style venue's, low ceiling (12ft) and generally a "large living room", once it filled with partons).

What does this have to do with the original question ??? read on..


If one "sings in the shower" geez... would that basicly be a fairly standard type of enclosure (shiny on 3 sides, dull on the 4th(curtain), and the persons voice is offset to the port end of the box (standing up, the area above the curtain is the port) and the steel tub, could be construde as the back of the tweeter(s) ???

Now, sit back and think back... When you where in a different bathroom.(hotel, distant friends place, etc.)... a tub is a tub... (generally speaking) how come when you sang there, it sounded different then when you sing at home ????

Plot that ! Why are they different ??? it's your voice, your head cavitys, a curtain, and a steel structure at you feet, and generally ceramic tile on 3 sides, are ya gona tell me the curtain make that much difference ????

__________________
Greg, aka A31Ford
Manitoba, Canada
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th February 2004, 10:53 AM   #20
ashwin is offline ashwin  India
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Bangalore
Quote:
Originally posted by Svante
Nice simulation! This is the Physisists way of doing it.

The electrical engineer might do it like this, using electric-mechanic-acoustic analogies. To the left currents are flowing through the cables and voltages appear over the components, in thew middle velocities "flow" through the components and forces appear over them, to the left, volume flows flow through the components and pressures appear over the components.
The diagram is the equivalent of a loudspeaker. We feed it a voltage (us) and a current (is) in the electric domain, and out of it we get a volume flow (Qs) and a pressure ((Ps) in the acoustic domain.

T=Bl and the symbol below the T is a gyrator, Ss is the cone area and the symbol below is an ideal transformer.
Svante,
thanks for that info. Just out of curiosity, Qms would be the Q of the mechanical RLC circuit (Rms, Mms, Cms), right? Then what would Qes be? There is no capacitor on the electrical side (left of the gyrator). Or have I got it all wrong?

Thanks
- Ashwin
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Air Resonance davidross Full Range 15 17th April 2009 09:10 PM
OpAmp Resonance? Stew Digital Source 32 7th April 2007 07:59 PM
Two questions of speaker theory BAM Multi-Way 3 6th January 2004 03:35 PM
2 way speaker in theory. What would you mate this tweeter with ? Mattias S Multi-Way 2 3rd December 2003 09:02 PM
nasty old resonance bostarob Multi-Way 13 3rd March 2003 06:00 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:18 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2