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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

A Bookshelf Multi-Way Point-Source Horn
A Bookshelf Multi-Way Point-Source Horn
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Old 2nd June 2016, 02:22 PM   #1411
rhapsodee is offline rhapsodee  Malaysia
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The new tympany compression driver measures very well in this exact PRV audio clone horn. Once the distortion measurements come out, we can see how low it can cross, hopefully 1khz or even less. If yes I'd just go with the CD rather than trying to hack a full range into the horn.

That leaves the woofer choice. Problem is hardly any options in Singapore. Anything available is usually the premium stuff or used, and the TS parameters may not be available.

I may just bite the bullet and buy something that works better from PE, especially if that tympany CD turns out good. Assuming it does, what would be a good woofer output wise to complement that CD with 1khz xo? Do I need to go up to 6 in to keep up?

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh....php?t=1282366

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Old 2nd June 2016, 04:20 PM   #1412
bwaslo is offline bwaslo  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhapsodee View Post
Just came across this waveguide in PE, very affordable. Would it work to be modified into a synergy horn? Would the exponential flare sound honky?

The horn walls seem flat and relatively easy to attach the mid woofer taps.

PRV Audio WG35-25-B 1" 90 x 60 ABS Waveguide 2/3-Bolt


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It's not an exponential horn, actually, it's a (rather good) constant directivity horn. And yes, you can do a synergy horn with it, but as said above you won't get a very large woofer on it.... but put a smallish woofer or mid on its side and you get the drivers withing 1/4 wavelength and you've got the point-source behavior. The walls aren't all that flat, though, so you'd have to add some mounting surfaces (and seal with something like epoxy putty)

I'm doing something similar with a SEOS15, it works out pretty well.

Directivity is only down to around 1kHz or so (and about 3kHz in the vertical), though, so I'm doing an array trick with a set of spaced woofers to extend horizontal directivity down to around 500Hz.
unsmoothed, un-normalized:
Click the image to open in full size.

1/6th octave smoothed:
Click the image to open in full size.

Changing to the new Tymphany CD tweeter, looks like it will be a lot flatter response. Pix above are with the CDX1-1445, midrange is TF0410MR (just one of them).
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Last edited by bwaslo; 2nd June 2016 at 04:38 PM.
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Old 2nd June 2016, 06:09 PM   #1413
rhapsodee is offline rhapsodee  Malaysia
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Wow Bill, looks amazing. So you have mids injecting into the seos15, and a pair of side by side woofers to control the directivity even lower using their lobing dips? Woofers are below / outside the seos15 making it a 3 way?
.
Got some pics of it? Measurements look so very good.

How long do you think the tympany CD can cross?

How is the prv waveguide constant directivity compared to the seos15?

Last question, promise. In the tech talk tympany CD thread, someone measured it in a Eminence h290b bi-radial waveguide. The on axis FR looked almost good enough to use without Eq. Is the h290b really that good?

Thanks!

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Old 2nd June 2016, 06:43 PM   #1414
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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A Bookshelf Multi-Way Point-Source Horn
Click the image to open in full size.

Indeed, that is a very nice polar response. Please post pics of this speaker.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 01:37 AM   #1415
HIPCHECK is offline HIPCHECK  United States
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I bought a few of those buyouts too! Just have not figured what I would do with them yet.....

please post some pics of what you have done so far.

Steve
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Old 3rd June 2016, 04:19 PM   #1416
nc535 is offline nc535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post
I'm doing something similar with a SEOS15, it works out pretty well.
Hi Bill:
I like what I see because I've got a pair of SEOS18s to try after I finish my synergy corner horn project. I was going to answer the question as to which gave a better result: the large size possible with a wooden conical horn or the smoothness you can get adapting a SEOS.

I imagine your woofer array will be more elegant than the one on "Big Mal", perhaps more on the lines of that recent offering from B&O?
Jack
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Old 3rd June 2016, 07:44 PM   #1417
bwaslo is offline bwaslo  United States
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Well, don't get too impressed yet. The speaker (and my measurement situation) is still "under development". The curves as measured (and designed for) are nice, but distortion isn't great (one of the reasons for trying the different tweeter driver) -
Click the image to open in full size.
The tweeter is being pushed lower than it is comfortable with (without a steep slope, it likes crossing over about an octave above where I have it).

Also, the box is too small for bass. They sound quite good when used downstairs with well-placed subs, but without subs (wife doesn't want more boxes in the living room where they were designed for) they don't sound so hot, no bass at all. And without bass, the baffle step, floor bounce, and a rise around 500Hz or so makes them sound kind of odd when used upstairs (black curve).
Click the image to open in full size.
They are also getting placed up against the wall, which lifts some of the low end, but not enough and not very complimentarily with the other room/baffle effects (red curve). Now it's a pronounced hump at 300Hz and still no bass other than a peak around 100Hz, sounds kind of nasal that way.

So, I'm still working on it. I want to incorporate some BSC (for the close-to-wall situation, since a WAF Synergy was the original intent). For our own use, an equalizer will squeak some bass out of the boxes (lots of boost at LF!) and help fill-in some of the floor bounce, but I wanted to also have a design that others MIGHT want to build or work from (engineer ego and all that ). Which is why I also wanted it to be a design without requiring angle cuts or bevels, and want to keep the crossover reasonably simple.

First shot crossover sims with the Tymphany CD aren't coming out as flat as I hoped (at least not without a complicated crossover).

This is what the woofer arrangement is -- there are two FaitalPro 6inch woofers mounted below and partially behind the waveguide, and firing through ports below the SEOS (rather than through the walls). The ports are short slots that keep the centers near the waveguide center to avoid vertical anomalies (that works pretty well, it turns out). They are spaced so they start to cancel off-axis horizontally at the frequency range where where the SEOS directivity on the midrange starts to give up, a bit of a blending process gettng that happy in the crossover. Actually, less complicated than the 'Malcolm' speakers of a few years ago, other than the baffle having to be cut in layers and be laminated.
Click the image to open in full size.

Here they are with two choices of foam grille (grilles are important for WAF!)
Click the image to open in full size.
Carol chose the black (which is a lot easier to do, too).

I started writing an article/thread about it, but put that on hold till I get the midrange distortion under control and get it doing bass on its own. After I catch up with other home projects, I'll probably do a reflex variation of it, about twice the box volume and a shelf port for actual bass.
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Last edited by bwaslo; 3rd June 2016 at 07:46 PM.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 08:00 PM   #1418
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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A Bookshelf Multi-Way Point-Source Horn
Thanks for sharing Bwaslo. What are you using for mids ? You do have mid ports near the throat right? Nice to see a passive xo. Actually I am working on a passive Xo synergy too and may have some questions for you later.
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Old 3rd June 2016, 08:25 PM   #1419
bwaslo is offline bwaslo  United States
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Hi xrk971,

The mid (singular!) is a Celestion TF0410MR, firing through two ports near the tweeter. The mid injection is needed because to do the blending trick with the woofers, the output from the SEOS has to go lower than a tweeter CD will do. But it might be doable without a mid using a fullrange tweeter like in your horn? -- I wonder if you could push your woofers out to the edges and blend to extend the directivity even further on your arrangement?

On the single mid, it occurred to me that I don't need the insane output that four or even two horn loaded cone midrances can do, and having fewer holes inside the horn is a better situation for the tweeters that have to fire past them. (It also makes it all cheaper and easier to make, which appeals).
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Old 3rd June 2016, 10:07 PM   #1420
nc535 is offline nc535
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But I am impressed - at the elegant simplicity of your solution. And a little surprised - I expected 4 woofers in a vertically as well as horizontally symmetrical pattern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post
Hi xrk971,

On the single mid, it occurred to me that I don't need the insane output that four or even two horn loaded cone midranges can do, and having fewer holes inside the horn is a better situation for the tweeters that have to fire past them. (It also makes it all cheaper and easier to make, which appeals).
yeah, but you also note that you are not satisfied with the distortion performance - which would get 6 db better with double the number of drivers. Is it the distortion peak around 1.5 Khz that concerns you? I know you know several CDs would be more comfortable with circa 1 Khz crossover. (e.g. DNA-360)

On the other 2nd mid issue - the additional holes. Add a 2nd driver and switch to half-size holes. You already said you aren't playing that loud. HR will provide a justification. Simulate half area ports through half the material thickness and you will bet the same throat ported chamber response. Then "frustrumize" as agressively as you can.

Jack
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