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Old 2nd January 2016, 09:34 PM   #1
Shure is offline Shure  Sweden
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Default Ellam Dappo

Hello guys!
Im im in need of your help right now.
First a little background history:
Around 2 years ago I built troel gravesens DTQWT and im been happy with them up until I tested them against some other speakers.
Me and my friends gathered a few speakers to do a shootout to see who had the best.
The speakers we tested was System Audio Explorer Master 4K$, System Audio Pandion 30 8K$, Yamaha Soavo 1 3K$, and a swedish brand DLS 55 for around 1K, And a Primare Combo for around 14K$ And my old yamaha reciever RX-V1700.
And to sum things up the Pandion 30 was the absolut winner and my DTQWT in the bottom.

Do I need to say I wanted something new ? =)

The pandion is a 2-way and uses Scan speak 15W/8531G00 and a D2905/990000 tweeter with a crossover frequency 2200 Hz (24 dB/oct.)

And now to my problem, on troels website I found his Ellam Dappo that uses 15W/8530G00 and R2604/832000 tweeter,
so I thought almost the same drivers so the sound should almost be the same too, ooh so wrong i was...
this one was even worse than the DTQWT, with a closed in and dull sound.
Just for fun I tried the crossover for the midrange from another DIY speaker called Mini Reference (Audio Components - Scan-Speak - Reference Line)
But it didnt do much difference, a little more open sound but not much.

So what do you guys think, is the differnce between 8531 and 8530 that big? or is it maybe the tweeter that makes all the difference.

Oh and I also have the XTZ Divine 100.33 at home right now, neither the the ellam dappo or DTQWT comes even close.

/Simon


20160102_222821.jpg
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Old 3rd January 2016, 01:51 AM   #2
_henry_ is offline _henry_  Australia
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speaker placements will affect your bass and mid bass response. i don't know the size of your room, but I'm guessing its not that big.

so in terms of midrange and treble presentation, a Big speakers in a small room and placed very near to boundary such as your photo indicated, it will have a lot of bass and mid bass energy. a Small speakers in a small room and placed near to boundary will usually have more balanced (as they don't as much quantity as big speakers with multiple (big) woofers) bass and mid bass presentation so that you hear more of midrange and treble.

of course this is assuming that your build is correct as the kit instructions.

note : i have not heard Troels design, but from the measurements, it is tuned to be in free space rather than near boundary.

if you haven't done this, try to play around with placements (you can do this temporarily ; even though your space won't allow it), move speakers away from the walls and spread as wide as you can, then toe in heavily so it crossed in front of you.

See what you think after that.

cheers
Henry
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Old 3rd January 2016, 03:03 AM   #3
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I've got to agree with Henry that placement and bafflestep boost is a big imponderable with speakers. I prefer less bass but placement close to the wall myself. Because excessive bass becomes intrusive when added to room gain.

But these speakers that you compare are all wildly different IMO. Regular MTM and big lively TQWT 8" mids and waveguided big tweeters with less top.

Troels is rapidly getting through updates with the TQWT types:
DTQWT-mkII

I can see some issues with the Ellam D'appo too:
Ellam d'

I found this circuit sounds bad with a regular amplifier:

Click the image to open in full size.

This one sounds better:

Click the image to open in full size.

There are other ways to have a HF path to ground:

Click the image to open in full size.

So where does this lead? It's my opinion that bass notch tanks are a bit edgy at high volume. I tend to leave them off these days. So does Troels. He's also tending towards the 22R tweeter shunt these days.

Having done that, you then need to rethink tweeter level and impedance, but it's a fairly simple modelling job. The smoother the top end, the higher level you can give it, which makes for liveliness. The 15W/8530 and 15W/8531 seem very similar, so I don't think that's the problem.

For sure I wouldn't dump the two Troels designs without trying a few tweaks.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 04:34 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shure View Post
H

The pandion is a 2-way and uses Scan speak 15W/8531G00 and a D2905/990000 tweeter with a crossover frequency 2200 Hz (24 dB/oct.)
Do you mean a Scanspeak 15W/4531G Revelator 5.5".
AVREPORT.ru: ?????? ????? ????? ??????: ???????? ??
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-woofer-4-ohm/
www.audioexcite.com ScanSpeak 15W/4531G00
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Scanspeak 15W4531G Revelator.jpg (41.4 KB, 322 views)
File Type: jpg Scanspeak D2905.990007.jpg (23.5 KB, 316 views)
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Old 3rd January 2016, 04:36 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shure View Post
And now to my problem, on troels website I found his Ellam Dappo that uses 15W/8530G00 and R2604/832000 tweeter,
Do you mean a Scanspeak 15W/8530K-00 5" Revelator.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...oofer-low-qts/
Ellam d'
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Old 3rd January 2016, 01:22 PM   #6
Dissi is offline Dissi  Switzerland
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Hi Simon,

Troels Gravesen's designs usually have a falling frequency response with a reduced tweeter level. But I think he went too far when he did the Ellam Dappo, at least my simulation shows a level difference of 4 dB. Since your woofers even are a little louder I'm not surprised at all it sounds dull.

Your speaker obviously needs a new crossover. Please clarify the woofer you are using, I assume it's the 15W/8531K00. Further it seems you didn't use the original baffle dimensions and driver layout of the Ellam Dappo. Any information and a front view of your speaker would help to know what we are talking about and to propose a customized crossover.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg SimulationEllamDappo.jpg (120.2 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg CrossoverEllamDappo.jpg (80.9 KB, 48 views)
File Type: jpg HorizontalDispersionEllamDappo.jpg (106.8 KB, 47 views)
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Old 3rd January 2016, 01:45 PM   #7
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Troels Gravesen doubtless has the usual lively Scandinavian wooden and bare and underdamped room, so designs to that preference with a BBC dip.

For sure, the Vifa/Scanspeak R2604 non-ferrofluid ring radiator needs some impedance correction at 750Hz. I really don't see much difference between a SS 15W and a Vifa PL14WJ. Both 5" paper woofers.

Ellam d'

Vifa PL14WJ-

Both 3kHz crossover. But the devil lies in the details. I don't much approve of parallel wired MTM's, as it goes. But like ring radiators, despite never having heard one in my life. I am a theoretician.
Attached Images
File Type: png Ellam Dappo.PNG (11.8 KB, 228 views)
File Type: png Vifa PL14J Dappo.PNG (11.9 KB, 27 views)
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Old 3rd January 2016, 05:07 PM   #8
Alex M is offline Alex M  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
Troels Gravesen doubtless has the usual lively Scandinavian wooden and bare and underdamped room, so designs to that preference with a BBC dip.
Here is a tantalising little video clip Troels has posted of his Mk. 2 SEAS 3-Way Classics in his system. You can see that they are situated a good metre away from the walls, which will reduce the bass level out in the room, and - as Steve imagines - the floor is bare boards, which will further sharpen the sound. I would guess that this is the environment that he designs for.

My own Mk 2 Classics are ever so slightly warm in their tonal balance, partly because our living room is quite plushly furnished and carpeted by Scandinavian standards, and partly because the speakers are perforce only about 10cm from the back wall.

Alex

Last edited by Alex M; 3rd January 2016 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 3rd January 2016, 05:16 PM   #9
Shure is offline Shure  Sweden
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Thanks for all the respons guys, I appreciate it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by _henry_ View Post
speaker placements will affect your bass and mid bass response. i don't know the size of your room, but I'm guessing its not that big.

of course this is assuming that your build is correct as the kit instructions.
Henry
I know that speaker placement can do some difference but I dont think thats the problem right now.
My living room is around 24 square meters + very open to my kitchen which is another 24 square meters.

When we did the testing I brought my speakers to my friend and his living room I would guess is around 60-70 square meters.
I will bring my System audio clones to his house now on tusday to do some more testing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
Troels is rapidly getting through updates with the TQWT types:
DTQWT-mkII

I can see some issues with the Ellam D'appo too:
Ellam d'

I found this circuit sounds bad with a regular amplifier:

Click the image to open in full size.

This one sounds better:

Click the image to open in full size.

There are other ways to have a HF path to ground:

Click the image to open in full size.

So where does this lead? It's my opinion that bass notch tanks are a bit edgy at high volume. I tend to leave them off these days. So does Troels. He's also tending towards the 22R tweeter shunt these days.

Having done that, you then need to rethink tweeter level and impedance, but it's a fairly simple modelling job. The smoother the top end, the higher level you can give it, which makes for liveliness. The 15W/8530 and 15W/8531 seem very similar, so I don't think that's the problem.

For sure I wouldn't dump the two Troels designs without trying a few tweaks.
I have built his latest mkII with the best crossover kit, the mkIII requires new elements.

The DTQWT plays a big and open sound but lacks the detail, with all the others we heard things we didnt with DTQWT.
The bass was also something that was lacking, with the 4 12" eminence we thought it would be the winner in that area.. but no.. the bass was almost non existent and with the crossover frequency to high we could hear them clearly playing voices and the sound bouncing on the walls back to the front just made them sound weird, we tried placing them around 1m from the wall (I dont think anyone would have them further out than that) but whit no luck.. hanging a towl on the backside did help though.

Anyway, back to the Ellam, you are suggesting that I place a 22R resistor parallel to the tweeter?
The last picture im not sure I understand, "There are other ways to have a HF path to ground"?

The suggested tweeter level by troels is 2,7R im using 1,8 right now.
Maybe I should try even lower..




The original bookshelf pandion uses 15W/4531G and the floorstanding the 8ohm version
I use the 15W/8530K00


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissi View Post
Hi Simon,

Troels Gravesen's designs usually have a falling frequency response with a reduced tweeter level. But I think he went too far when he did the Ellam Dappo, at least my simulation shows a level difference of 4 dB. Since your woofers even are a little louder I'm not surprised at all it sounds dull.

Your speaker obviously needs a new crossover. Please clarify the woofer you are using, I assume it's the 15W/8531K00. Further it seems you didn't use the original baffle dimensions and driver layout of the Ellam Dappo. Any information and a front view of your speaker would help to know what we are talking about and to propose a customized crossover.
It's the 15W/8530K00 version that I use, all the drivers are the same as troels used in his design.
I have changed the design a little, the tweeter isn't offset and the baffle are narrower than the original, 17,5cm instead of 21cm. But I wouldnt think that changes the sound to much?
My design is an exact copy of system audio's Pandion 30. They even show the drawings online.
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Old 4th January 2016, 03:26 AM   #10
_henry_ is offline _henry_  Australia
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Location: Australia
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shure View Post
I know that speaker placement can do some difference but I dont think thats the problem right now.
My living room is around 24 square meters + very open to my kitchen which is another 24 square meters.

When we did the testing I brought my speakers to my friend and his living room I would guess is around 60-70 square meters.
I will bring my System audio clones to his house now on tusday to do some more testing.
Ok, looks like you gave them a fair run.

some note for the DTQWT, i think Troels mentioned about putting a grill with thick felt to increase low pass filter for the 2 eminence woofers. 24m2 is quite small for speakers with that size even though it bleeds out to another room.

did u double checked if the woofers are in the right phase? running a sweep with a mic would be the best approach, just to make sure the speakers are all in phase to it's related drivers.

at the end of the day, speakers is come right down to crossover tuning. as it is somewhat DIY, you can always adjust them to fit with your taste.

with narrower baffle, the baffle step freq will move up, it may or may not have significant effect depending on the crossover.

cheers
Henry

Last edited by _henry_; 4th January 2016 at 03:28 AM.
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