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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Ellam Dappo
Ellam Dappo
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Old 12th January 2018, 04:14 PM   #31
Shure is offline Shure  Sweden
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Join Date: May 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by 88man View Post
Shure, Please move the speaker around. I tried different locations, and room bass gain varied as much as 8dB. When placed close to corner or walls, the bass was a little boomy, obscuring some treble, muddying the midrange clarity, and imaging

I tried to stuff the port with acoustifill, boominess went away, but lost the air and reverb. I didn't like it.

Since these speakers will be placed near a wall, I then lined the side walls, top, and bottom a single layer of 30mm acoustilux, and lined the rear wall with 2 layers of 30mm acoustilux. I added 3in more acoustifill from Parts-Express on the rear wall. This reduced boominess, improved clarity, without any loss to air and imaging.

Then I began to wonder, and see what the 68x160mm port tuning is. Wow, a 68x160mm port tuning calculates to 50Hz, a very high tuning. port lengt is too short. It should be tuned in the range of 40-45Hz. This in turn would make the speaker sound boomy, muddy the mids, and decrease the overall perception of treble. I just swapped the 68x160 port with a 68x220mm tube now, and voila. The speaker is now tuned to 44Hz (down from 50Hz) and has made a huge improvement.

If you don't have a longer port, or can't fit a longer one, try rolling a slightly trapezoidal piece of felt once around the inner wall of the port as a para-aperiodic port or "stealth reflex." I tried this and it works equally well as a longer port, and helps cut more midrange coming out of the port.

Double check your crossover, caps, and resistor, and inductor values. I've had great luck with Jantzen Superior Z, Mundorf Supremes, and Mundorf Silver Oil caps.

Double check your solder connections. I've cold solder joints in the past before at the terminals.

I really hope you can be happy with this speaker.

I spent hundreds of hours on them and tried everything that I could think of.
I guess this speakers wasn't for me, sold them yesterday.

I have 2 new projects that im working on right now, one is an exact clone of pandion 5 (should be hard to fail on that one) and the other is a "diy" kit from a big brand using Seas beryllium tweeter and seas magnesium woofer.
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Old 12th January 2018, 08:36 PM   #32
tonza75 is offline tonza75  Europe
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shure View Post
I spent hundreds of hours on them and tried everything that I could think of.
I guess this speakers wasn't for me, sold them yesterday.

I have 2 new projects that im working on right now, one is an exact clone of pandion 5 (should be hard to fail on that one) and the other is a "diy" kit from a big brand using Seas beryllium tweeter and seas magnesium woofer.
Where do you get the scanspeak revelator D29Xx/99007 from. I world like to buy a matched pair.
I have the orginal relevator 99000 soft dome pair. Do you have some data sheet or measurement of the customized relevator. decay Time, impedance, speaker parameters. Tell me more of the pandion 5 clone
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Old 12th January 2018, 11:38 PM   #33
88man is offline 88man  United States
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Boston
I'd hate to see anybody give up on a speaker - too many hours, effort, money are invested.

It's difficult to attribute any adjectives to the XT25TG-04 - It's not silky, metallic, it just renders treble with flat neutrality. If you're looking for a lively sound, it's too dark due to its thicker cone compared to other ring radiators. However, compared to the XT25TG-04, the 99000 it may have the same tonal characteristics, but will project timbral quality much differently due to its wave guide, hence give you a livelier sound.

The Scan-Speak sliced paper cone was not the midrange for you. Seas, in general, has clearer midrange, but Scan-Speak has deeper bass. Seas magnesium cones are excellent, but make sure you're clear of any cone break-up frequencies in your crossover - may have to go higher order roll-off.

Beryllium tweeters have the best clarity, transparency, neutrality against a black background. In other words, they don't sound silky like textile domes, or metallic like Ti or Al domes. Be tweeeters will give you ultimate neutrality and transparency, so place the best series caps you can afford. You can make the Be domes hotter, and you're less likely to distort or make them sound harsh.

If you're looking for livelier side of neutral, I've used Mundorf Supreme and Mundorf Silver Oil caps with excellent results.

In any case, I'm working on another D'Appolito design with a pair of 6.5in SBA MW16P-8 woofers and the TW29BN Be tweeter. The voicing will be totally different than the Dappo.

Last edited by 88man; 12th January 2018 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 13th January 2018, 10:20 AM   #34
Shure is offline Shure  Sweden
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Join Date: May 2010
I wouldnt say that the XT25 renders a "flat neutrality" rather very dark or closed in, in my opinion.

I like the scan speak driver used in pandion 5, but that is the uncoated version, much more livley sound.

The seas kit is already pre assembled, its actually an upgrade kit from XTZ to upgrade their 99 series speakers, they use the Mundorf Supreme capacitors as well

Aren't you generalizing an awful lot when u say textile domes sound silky and Ti or Al domes sound metallic?
My ceramic tweeters doesn't sound hard becouse the material is, my D2905 doesn't sound soft becouse the material is.
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Old 13th January 2018, 11:50 AM   #35
88man is offline 88man  United States
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Join Date: Aug 2009
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Indeed I have... For every generalization, there are exceptions. For example, the 98000 Al dome, is more silky than metallic. But it's an expensive way to find out otherwise. Generalizations only give us a good start and might keep us safe from potential pitfalls and surprises had we not known about them.
For extra sparkle, you might even like the Mundorf Evo line... Don't forget to experiment with bypass caps too
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Old 13th January 2018, 01:54 PM   #36
Dissi is offline Dissi  Switzerland
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Winterthur
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicoch58 View Post
I see no ones speak about the amp interaction on final sound...damping factor make a lot of difference !
I fully agree. Whether a high output impedance tube amp or a low output impedance solid state amp is used can really make a big difference.

Unfortunately Troels Gravesen doesn't use any impedance correction circuits in his speaker designs. He completely ignores the interaction of amplifier output impedance and speaker load impedance. He simply connects a speaker like the Ellam Dappo to his tube amp and that is it.

Even his solid state amp is class A with zero negative feedback. One should notice that Troels Gravesen is using all kind of exotic gear that is tuned and modified to his liking, but regular solid state amps do not exist in his world.

Perhaps everyone using a solid state amp should wire an additional 1 ohm resistor in series to the loudspeaker cable in order to get the intended sound!
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Old 13th January 2018, 02:45 PM   #37
Alex M is offline Alex M  Europe
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Join Date: Apr 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissi View Post
I fully agree. Whether a high output impedance tube amp or a low output impedance solid state amp is used can really make a big difference.

Unfortunately Troels Gravesen doesn't use any impedance correction circuits in his speaker designs. He completely ignores the interaction of amplifier output impedance and speaker load impedance. He simply connects a speaker like the Ellam Dappo to his tube amp and that is it.

Even his solid state amp is class A with zero negative feedback. One should notice that Troels Gravesen is using all kind of exotic gear that is tuned and modified to his liking, but regular solid state amps do not exist in his world.

Perhaps everyone using a solid state amp should wire an additional 1 ohm resistor in series to the loudspeaker cable in order to get the intended sound!
I can't disagree, but at the same time he keeps the response of his speakers quite warm tonally compared with many commercial speaker designs (ProAc, for instance), which makes them arguably more solid-state friendly.

Alex
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