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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 4th January 2016, 02:28 PM   #11
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I had a look at the Ellam Dappo crossover:

Click the image to open in full size.

It's actually overly fussy IMO.

The 22R and 0.33uF tank does next to nothing acting quite high. And lowers top end impedance to uncomfortably low.

The LCR just drops the "presence band" midrange 2dB at 1kHz.

I think you usually need a shunt resistor with a ring-radiator to damp the Fs.

You could disconnect the tank, and maybe even the LCR IMO.

Lose the 1.8R, and add shunt 10R. Keep the 3.9uF and 11.2uF if you want, or replace with a single 4.7uF for second order. Impedance is definitely in the 4 ohm bracket, but not too wild.

The DTQWT is not something I want to think about right now, but should be a gutsy speaker IMO.
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Old 29th January 2016, 10:32 PM   #12
88man is offline 88man  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
I had a look at the Ellam Dappo crossover:

Click the image to open in full size.

It's actually overly fussy IMO.

The 22R and 0.33uF tank does next to nothing acting quite high. And lowers top end impedance to uncomfortably low.

The LCR just drops the "presence band" midrange 2dB at 1kHz.

I think you usually need a shunt resistor with a ring-radiator to damp the Fs.

You could disconnect the tank, and maybe even the LCR IMO.

Lose the 1.8R, and add shunt 10R. Keep the 3.9uF and 11.2uF if you want, or replace with a single 4.7uF for second order. Impedance is definitely in the 4 ohm bracket, but not too wild.

The DTQWT is not something I want to think about right now, but should be a gutsy speaker IMO.
Great points, Steve! I'm building the Ellam D'Appo now. If it doesn't sound good in my room, I'll try your crossover. My starting point is 2.2 Ohm for the series tweeter, instead of 2.7 Ohms.

On a previous eVeII build with the typical narrow baffle, an LCR as such would've been welcome since it's a bit forward from 700-1000Hz. So, I might keep the LCR here on the D'Appo. I'm almost done with a custom "Andromeda III" from Tony Gee, so the D'Appo is my first Troels project. I also have the ATS-4 still in boxes. My room is carpeted, a far cry from Troels' bringht listening room. It will be interesting how this project will turn out.
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Old 31st January 2016, 09:28 PM   #13
Shure is offline Shure  Sweden
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I have tried a few different things now.

The first was to change the polarity of the tweeter, BIG difference.
Now it started to sound like a good speaker, it no longer had that dull and boring sound.
I have checked and tripple checked the crossover and everything was connected correct after Troels crossover layout, weird.

Although the sound improved much I still didn't feel satisfied so I have tried the crossover System7 recommended but the changes was small, taking away the LCR made the midrange a little to forward so I left it in.
The only change that did improve was to remove the 1 ohm resistor, it helped a little to raise the treble.
I still didn't feel satisfied so I placed an order for the D2904/9800 tweeter, according to troel a change can be made whitout changing anything in the crossover.
What a waste of money.. the sonic difference to R2604 was little to none.

But.. im not giving up =)
Audio Components has a speaker called Mini Reference that uses the same midrange as Troels Dappo but a different tweeter, a D2904/71000.
So I ordered a new tweeter and crossover components to try this one out.

Again I was dissapointed, the tweeter sounded ok but the midrange was way to much making it sound "boxy", but this gave me an idea, the dappo midrange was a little more laidback and the tweeter on the Mini Reference sounded really good so why not combine the two.
Said and done I did the changes and WOW.. now it starts to sound like a really good speaker.
I dont know if this crossover is the best but it do sound really good.

At Least fairly flat
Ref.jpg
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Old 2nd February 2016, 12:25 AM   #14
88man is offline 88man  United States
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20160117_134944-1.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shure View Post
I have tried a few different things now.

The first was to change the polarity of the tweeter, BIG difference.
Now it started to sound like a good speaker, it no longer had that dull and boring sound.
I have checked and tripple checked the crossover and everything was connected correct after Troels crossover layout, weird.

Although the sound improved much I still didn't feel satisfied so I have tried the crossover System7 recommended but the changes was small, taking away the LCR made the midrange a little to forward so I left it in.
The only change that did improve was to remove the 1 ohm resistor, it helped a little to raise the treble.
I still didn't feel satisfied so I placed an order for the D2904/9800 tweeter, according to troel a change can be made whitout changing anything in the crossover.
What a waste of money.. the sonic difference to R2604 was little to none.

But.. im not giving up =)
Audio Components has a speaker called Mini Reference that uses the same midrange as Troels Dappo but a different tweeter, a D2904/71000.
So I ordered a new tweeter and crossover components to try this one out.

Again I was dissapointed, the tweeter sounded ok but the midrange was way to much making it sound "boxy", but this gave me an idea, the dappo midrange was a little more laidback and the tweeter on the Mini Reference sounded really good so why not combine the two.
Said and done I did the changes and WOW.. now it starts to sound like a really good speaker.
I dont know if this crossover is the best but it do sound really good.

At Least fairly flat
Attachment 528505
Thanks, Shure! That new FR looks awesome! The 71000, along with the "Air-Circ" soft domes, might require LCR correction because of the Fs=500Hz+ at high volume. If it works, leave it!

I'm sure you'll find a good use for the 98000. The 9800 tweeter has worked beautifully in my Geers eVeII - transparent, smooth, detailed, musical. I have a feeling the XT25TG might be darker. However, I have both tweeters to swap.

In Troels' new crossover layout, he does have the tweeter out of phase, but the schematic is in phase. So, I'll wire them out of phase since the the mid is 2nd order, and the tweeter is 3rd order. I'm going with the Mundorf LL60 Hepta Strand for the 0.82mH - touted for their fine detail, dynamic, holographic sound stage. This goes well with the spacious and neutral nature of the Superior Z-Caps. For tweeters, I find the Superior Z-Caps aren't as extended, so I'm going with Silver Z-Caps for more detailed extension. Here is my crossover mock up, (without the bypass components).

Questions:
1. Did you experiment with Mid and tweeter caps?...
2. Did you experiment with vent stuffing?... I am thinking of aperiodic - slightly stuffed. VB-2HD sound damping sheets, carpet felt, egg crate foam on rear of cabinet, add Acousta-fill until boxiness goes away.
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Old 2nd February 2016, 02:22 AM   #15
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Ellam D'Appo:
Ellam d'

Click the image to open in full size.

I'm suggesting you lose the 1 or 1.8R series resistor after the tweeter filter and add a shunt 15 or 22R. Actually improves impedance and might sound better at the top. Not a radical change.
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Old 2nd February 2016, 03:04 AM   #16
88man is offline 88man  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
Ellam D'Appo:
Ellam d'

Click the image to open in full size.

I'm suggesting you lose the 1 or 1.8R series resistor after the tweeter filter and add a shunt 15 or 22R. Actually improves impedance and might sound better at the top. Not a radical change.
Great suggestion, Steve! I am going to try it out before siliconing the parts onto the board. I have all the indicated values. Indeed, a little higher impedence should be an improvement. It will decongest the crossover board too. This seems like it was an experimental project on behalf of Troels' friend, Jesper, so I don't think he spent as much time on balancing and voicing like his other projects. As he states, crossover was mainly based on simulation.
Thanks again!
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Old 7th February 2016, 01:20 PM   #17
Shure is offline Shure  Sweden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88man View Post
Attachment 528689
Questions:
1. Did you experiment with Mid and tweeter caps?...
2. Did you experiment with vent stuffing?... I am thinking of aperiodic - slightly stuffed. VB-2HD sound damping sheets, carpet felt, egg crate foam on rear of cabinet, add Acousta-fill until boxiness goes away.
1. I have only tried different values, not different brands, im sure that higher quality components can make a difference but I have never tried it.
When I decide what speaker im gonna live with for the next years to come I will experiment with higher quality caps.

2. On all sides except the front I have used carpet felt, I have tried stuffing the box with polyester wool both much and little, but it didn't do much of a difference.

Changing the tweeter did the biggest difference, it's not even comparable to the XT25. Sounds like an all new speaker.

But I must say that even the change of tweeter made a HUGE improvement it still doesn't come close to the xtz Divine.

So now im not sure what to do, maybe I choose the xtz or maybe I try the D2905/990000 tweeter that the real System audio pandion 30 uses.
I have the crossover schematic from the smaller Pandion 2, do you think that I can use that and simply and another mid driver?

04.09.13.8.jpg

20160207_144109.jpg
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Old 9th February 2016, 03:47 AM   #18
88man is offline 88man  United States
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Interestingly, I've written to Troels in the past if he had any plans for a DIY 7" D'Appolito. He stated that it's more of the same, referring to the Ellam D'Appo. I have a pair of Adam S3A Monitors which I use for my computer monitors. So, like you, I love the holographic magic that D'Appolitos can render.

The XTZ Divine uses exquisite drivers, but it's 7" and not 5.25". The Accuton ceramic cones should render a more neutral presentation with blacker background. Ceramic tweeters are have more transient detail, neutral, and a "blacker background." They are in a different class than any of the soft dome tweeters which sound detailed too but in a "silky" way, and not as quiet.

The Scan-Speak sandwich/coated paper cones are more lively than the Accuton ceramic cones. Indeed, the Pandion design should sound more lively than the Ellam D'Appodue to the 99000 tweeter. I think there is a DIY schematic for the 18W/8531G and 99000 drivers. The 99000 tweeter in the Pandion 30 should be more strident in the highs than any of the other soft dome tweeters you've tried - XT25, 98000, 71000. The 99000 has a 2-4kHz peak on an infinite baffle, and its pseudo-wave guide faceplate might contribute to more presence. It also handles a crazy 430W.

As far as adding another woofer to the Pandion 2, you'll have to modify the crossover for sure. It uses a 4th-order crossover in the mid. It might mean complete overhaul of the circuit. I don't know -- Someone should chime in for that...

As far as soft domes go, I've read that the 71000 and 66000 seem to be the best among the soft domes available. Soft domes have come a long way in the past 10-15 years.

I've also ordered all the parts for the Scan-Speak Ophelia project that appeared in the Klang & Ton. However, not a MTM, it's a MMT that uses the 18W/8531G00 (2) and 714000 Be tweeter. The 18W Revelator has a great midrange quality, and the Be tweeter is on the same class as diamonds and ceramics - dynamic, descriptive, black background. I'll be using Cu foil inductors, Mundorf Supreme for the 7", and 3.3 uF Jupitor Cu Foil Cap for the tweeter. I have high hopes for this speaker.

Last edited by 88man; 9th February 2016 at 03:57 AM.
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Old 9th February 2016, 08:05 AM   #19
nicoch58 is offline nicoch58  Europe
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I see no ones speak about the amp interaction on final sound...damping factor make a lot of difference !
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Old 4th January 2018, 06:37 PM   #20
88man is offline 88man  United States
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I finished the Dappos, and they sound very good, better than I expected - a balanced sound of bass and highs. I wired the tweeters in reverse polarity as some suggested. However, the frequency response sounds notched around 3kHz upon critical listening.

Is this the proverbial tweeter "suck-out" one sees on reverse polarity plots?... I guess I should change the tweeter to positive polarity. Most D'Appolitos crossovers seem to be wired in positive polarity when searching though Google archives. Any advice whether tweeters should have positive polarity or be reversed?...

Thanks.
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