Hi All DIYers!
I'd like to offer you all a Christmas present. Inspired by a discussion with Gagglers, I've put together this design, I'm calling the SAR-1 for Squires Affordable Reference. I hope at least some enjoy making them, and I know many will enjoy criticizing it.
Happy Holidays!
Best,
Erik
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The tweeter is a Dayton Audio AMT3-4 ($160/pr) and the woofer is a ScanSpeak 7", 4 Ohm Revelator 18W/4531-G00 woofer ($420/pr). It is based on the SNR-1, which uses a Mundorf tweeter. The problem with the SNR-1 though is the tweeter cost, which at around $930/pair was the most expensive part of the design, followed by cabinets, crossover and finally the woofer. The total cost seemed too much for a DIY project so I have not posted it here. Instead I have redesigned the crossover for the less expensive Dayton tweeter, saving around $770. If you build your own cabinets the SAR-1 could be done for around $800 + lumber depending on the cost of your crossover parts.
Now, before you get TOO excited, this design is virtual. The woofer measurements are based on my measurements in my cabinets. The tweeter data however comes from Dayton. It's likely you'll need to adjust something before yours is completely dialed in. For my design, I used a speaker offset of 1.44" based on the SNR-1, it's probably close, but not exact.
The cabinet uses ScanSpeak's recommendations mostly, a 1 ft3 enclosure with a 6" long, 2" port. It can easily be adapted to a sealed enclosure as well by using a 0.4 ft3, but as I was told, and learned, the larger volume is totally worth it. It's like having twins. You were only expecting one baby, but you got two. The volume is a bit of a surprise, but totally worth it.
C3/R3/R4 are optional, useful for tube gear that can't handle big impedance spikes. Resistors doubled up require 12Watts.
The SNR-1 uses Clarity MR caps in the tweeter and Clarity ESA caps for the woofer. Clarity Caps have proven to be amazing. Better to my ears than Mundorf Supreme's and SIO's in that they lack a lot of character the Mundorf's seem to add. The one area where they seem to have character is in strings, which take on a nearly warm, soapy feeling, as if the bows had been lathered in wet soap. I am sorry, that's probably a terrible description. Sadly, the single 20uF tweeter cap (or 2 x 10uF) will run around $180 per pair, about half the cost of the caps in the SNR-1. Think of the money you are saving! 🙂 If that's still too rich the lowest I'd go is with the Clarity ESAs, around $79 for tweeter caps.
If you'd like to have cabinets made, I'd encourage you to turn to Taylor Speakers.
OK, enough chit-chat! Down to the dirty stuff. In the first chart, the frequency response, I plot the SNR-1 with the Mundorf Tweeter above the SAR-1. Note the actual sensitivity is identical, I've offset for clarity.
I'd like to offer you all a Christmas present. Inspired by a discussion with Gagglers, I've put together this design, I'm calling the SAR-1 for Squires Affordable Reference. I hope at least some enjoy making them, and I know many will enjoy criticizing it.
Happy Holidays!
Best,
Erik
----------------------------------
The tweeter is a Dayton Audio AMT3-4 ($160/pr) and the woofer is a ScanSpeak 7", 4 Ohm Revelator 18W/4531-G00 woofer ($420/pr). It is based on the SNR-1, which uses a Mundorf tweeter. The problem with the SNR-1 though is the tweeter cost, which at around $930/pair was the most expensive part of the design, followed by cabinets, crossover and finally the woofer. The total cost seemed too much for a DIY project so I have not posted it here. Instead I have redesigned the crossover for the less expensive Dayton tweeter, saving around $770. If you build your own cabinets the SAR-1 could be done for around $800 + lumber depending on the cost of your crossover parts.
Now, before you get TOO excited, this design is virtual. The woofer measurements are based on my measurements in my cabinets. The tweeter data however comes from Dayton. It's likely you'll need to adjust something before yours is completely dialed in. For my design, I used a speaker offset of 1.44" based on the SNR-1, it's probably close, but not exact.
The cabinet uses ScanSpeak's recommendations mostly, a 1 ft3 enclosure with a 6" long, 2" port. It can easily be adapted to a sealed enclosure as well by using a 0.4 ft3, but as I was told, and learned, the larger volume is totally worth it. It's like having twins. You were only expecting one baby, but you got two. The volume is a bit of a surprise, but totally worth it.
C3/R3/R4 are optional, useful for tube gear that can't handle big impedance spikes. Resistors doubled up require 12Watts.
The SNR-1 uses Clarity MR caps in the tweeter and Clarity ESA caps for the woofer. Clarity Caps have proven to be amazing. Better to my ears than Mundorf Supreme's and SIO's in that they lack a lot of character the Mundorf's seem to add. The one area where they seem to have character is in strings, which take on a nearly warm, soapy feeling, as if the bows had been lathered in wet soap. I am sorry, that's probably a terrible description. Sadly, the single 20uF tweeter cap (or 2 x 10uF) will run around $180 per pair, about half the cost of the caps in the SNR-1. Think of the money you are saving! 🙂 If that's still too rich the lowest I'd go is with the Clarity ESAs, around $79 for tweeter caps.
If you'd like to have cabinets made, I'd encourage you to turn to Taylor Speakers.
OK, enough chit-chat! Down to the dirty stuff. In the first chart, the frequency response, I plot the SNR-1 with the Mundorf Tweeter above the SAR-1. Note the actual sensitivity is identical, I've offset for clarity.
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Hi All DIYers!
I'd like to offer you all a Christmas present. Inspired by a discussion with Gagglers, I've put together this design, I'm calling the SAR-1 for Squires Affordable Reference. I hope at least some enjoy making them, and I know many will enjoy criticizing it.
Happy Holidays!
Best,
Erik
----------------------------------
The tweeter is a Dayton Audio AMT3-4 ($160/pr) and the woofer is a ScanSpeak 7", 4 Ohm Revelator 18W/4531-G00 woofer ($420/pr). It is based on the SNR-1, which uses a Mundorf tweeter. The problem with the SNR-1 though is the tweeter cost, which at around $930/pair was the most expensive part of the design, followed by cabinets, crossover and finally the woofer, so by switching tweeters you'll save $770, or about 30%.
Now, before you get TOO excited, this design is virtual. The woofer measurements are based on my measurements in my cabinets. The tweeter data however comes from Dayton. It's likely you'll need to adjust something before yours is completely dialed in. For my design, I used a speaker offset of 1.44" based on the SNR-1, it's probably close, but not exact.
The cabinet uses ScanSpeak's recommendations mostly, a 1 ft3 enclosure with a 6" long, 2" port. It can easily be adapted to a sealed enclosure as well by using a 0.4 ft3, but as I was told, and learned, the larger volume is totally worth it. It's like having twins. You were only expecting one baby, but you got two. The volume is a bit of a surprise, but totally worth it.
C3/R3/R4 are optional, useful for tube gear that can't handle big impedance spikes. Resistors doubled up require 12Watts.
The SNR-1 uses Clarity MR caps in the tweeter and Clarity ESA caps for the woofer. Clarity Caps have proven to be amazing. Better to my ears than Mundorf Supreme's and SIO's in that they lack a lot of character the Mundorf's seem to add. The one area where they seem to have character is in strings, which take on a nearly warm, soapy feeling, as if the bows had been lathered in wet soap. I am sorry, that's probably a terrible description.
If you'd like to have cabinets made, I'd encourage you to turn to Taylor Speakers.
OK, enough chit-chat! Down to the dirty stuff. In the first chart, the frequency response, I plot the SNR-1 with the Mundorf Tweeter above the SAR-1. Note the actual sensitivity is identical, I've offset for clarity.
You referenced a "SNR-1". I tried googling it, but couldn't find anything. Is it a Mundorf kit or a guru's kit or design?
Hi SpeakerDoctor!
Sorry I was posting at 5 AM my time and suffering from a cold. The SNR-1 stands for Squires Natural Reference. It is a design I conceived and am still working on the crossover. I'm not sure exactly how or if I'll make the crossover public, but here is a pic.
As I mention, cabinetwork is by Taylor Speakers.
One thing I should have posted is a picture of the in-room bass response. Remember kids, in-room bass is never ever smooth. Fortunately by placing the speakers assymetrically you can get lucky and get each speaker to fill in the weak points for the other.
Anyway, my point is, for a 2 way, in a mediumish San Francisco apartment, the SS 7" in the right cabinet has more than enough bass for anyone. If you want better bass than this, you don't need a bigger speaker, you need a bigger home.
Anyway, my point is, for a 2 way, in a mediumish San Francisco apartment, the SS 7" in the right cabinet has more than enough bass for anyone. If you want better bass than this, you don't need a bigger speaker, you need a bigger home.
Nice project. Can you share some FR's from that one?
I went smaller with the AMT tweeter in my Intimates. It's coupled with a SS 15W/8530K01 mid-woofer in a 15L vented cabinet with listenable bass to 40 hz.
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Hi SR!
Very nice looking! I was going to go for small, but like I said, I ended up with twins. 🙂 I mean, I wanted a small bookshelf, got a large stand mounted speaker but couldn't be happier.
The FR is at the top of the first FR I posted. The bass response is also posted above. One thing, I was going to go with those tweeters, but they were going to be out of stock for months. Turns out that the extra $70 per tweeter paid for itself in $90 less expensive crossover parts. 🙂
Best,
ERik
Thanks!
I should have mentioned thank you. You were the one who sent me the really great distortion measurements that encouraged me to take the plunge with the cost of the Mundorfs. 🙂
So, thank you! This project would have gone some entirely different direction otherwise.
Bets,
Erik
I should have mentioned thank you. You were the one who sent me the really great distortion measurements that encouraged me to take the plunge with the cost of the Mundorfs. 🙂
So, thank you! This project would have gone some entirely different direction otherwise.
Bets,
Erik
nice design I haved the 5W" the 7W" will kill for sure , clarity are really good caps, neutral smooth well balance ....
Nice projects both the SAR and the SNR.
Have been thinking along the same lines lately, mostly for a new HT center speaker (2 way floor stander). Has been considering the new SB 7.5 Satori instead of SS ... though the 18W/4531 is a really nice driver. But I think the SB might be even better in the mid-high ... but maybe lees so in the bass .... where for a center I'll need less.
An alternative for the Mondorf could also be the Harwood AM 25 https://www.hifisound.de/de/Lautspr...oener/Harwood-Acoustics-AM-25-AIR-Motion.html ..... measures better then the Dayton, but also cost some more ... but sill less than half of the Mondorf.
Another alternative to the Mondorf could be the bigger Dayton AMTPRO-4 ....
Have a nice Christmas Baldin 🙂
Have been thinking along the same lines lately, mostly for a new HT center speaker (2 way floor stander). Has been considering the new SB 7.5 Satori instead of SS ... though the 18W/4531 is a really nice driver. But I think the SB might be even better in the mid-high ... but maybe lees so in the bass .... where for a center I'll need less.
An alternative for the Mondorf could also be the Harwood AM 25 https://www.hifisound.de/de/Lautspr...oener/Harwood-Acoustics-AM-25-AIR-Motion.html ..... measures better then the Dayton, but also cost some more ... but sill less than half of the Mondorf.
Another alternative to the Mondorf could be the bigger Dayton AMTPRO-4 ....
Have a nice Christmas Baldin 🙂
Thanks!
Not sure why you'd need less. I mean, using the right processing we can get away with speakers of different cut-offs, and it's usually convenient to have a smaller center channel to place it under the TV or what have you, but more is better. 🙂
That's pretty nice, especially in the very top octave.
I looked at that one and for this project rejected it. In my mind the idea was to take SNR-1's enclosure as well. The AMTPRO-4 looks like a good driver, but it's:
- Too long for this project
- Twice as expensive
- Doesn't solve what I think is the main issue, which is the response between 10k and 20k.
- Not a true sealed back design. Would need a separate enclosure for it.
Thanks for your comments!
Best,
Erik
One can only wonder if the design and build quality of the Dayton AMT-3 will yield similar low distortion to the Mundorf AMT's. Anyone have any measurements comparing 70 dB and 90-95dB?
Good questions all! I however spent my Christmas cash in October with the SNR-1, so I am not about to be able to justify buying one to find out. 🙂
I've decided to part out a pair of Focal speakers though, so I'll have a pair of woofers looking for a good home. Might make a center channel with them and a Dayton AMT. However, money will have to fall out of the sky for any of this to happen any time soon. 🙂
Best,
Erik
Have been playing a bit in Win PCD with the AMT3-4.
Not sure it is that good a choise.
- It rolls off very rapidly to lower freq probably because it has no rear chamber
- Therefore not easy to do a good filter like LR2, and a quite high crossover freq .. like 2.5 - 3.5 kHz
- Quite uneven freq resp
- Compared to a number of other AMTs, not the best distortion perf (Look at the construction of a 3 way TL with Wavecor and the AMT3-4 in Klang + Ton 6/2015)
Still think the AMTPRO or the Harwood is the better option
Not sure it is that good a choise.
- It rolls off very rapidly to lower freq probably because it has no rear chamber
- Therefore not easy to do a good filter like LR2, and a quite high crossover freq .. like 2.5 - 3.5 kHz
- Quite uneven freq resp
- Compared to a number of other AMTs, not the best distortion perf (Look at the construction of a 3 way TL with Wavecor and the AMT3-4 in Klang + Ton 6/2015)
Still think the AMTPRO or the Harwood is the better option
This is kind of odd criticism. As mentioned, this was intended to be a significant step down from a Mundorf design for a lot less money. If you want to pick better AMT's, yes, go use the Mundorfs.
As you can see, the crossover I came up with works and the size is a good match for the cabinet. The AMT pro, for my needs in this design, was not right either. Plus, it's more of a dipole with heavy felt on the back. I didn't want to create a separate chamber. Also, the AMTPro is no better in the last octave.
If you are saying you wouldn't use it for your designs, then don't.
Best,
Erik
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