I already have some Electrovoice speakers and like their quality and efficiency. I'm planning to open a coffee house/concert club soon and want to start designing my PA.
What do you think about using EVM-15B for the LF, EVM-12L for the mid bass-mids? What should I use for tweeters? Would it be horrible if I just put 3 cheep motarola tweeters in each cab? Or should I invest in better horns?
Should I horn load the EVM-15B or just put it in a ported box? If it would be in a ported box, they are really really small from what I've seen reccomended. I have one in a small box (less than 2^2 feet) right now and it works rather well.
The EVM-12L would probably be ported to keep the excursion lower. (the speaker actually has an extreemly flat response)
I would probably run 300-400 watts to the subs and the same to the mids and highs. It would be bi-amped. I'm looking for sound quality and decent volume. I do not want to be clipping the highs like many clubs do!
What do you think about using EVM-15B for the LF, EVM-12L for the mid bass-mids? What should I use for tweeters? Would it be horrible if I just put 3 cheep motarola tweeters in each cab? Or should I invest in better horns?
Should I horn load the EVM-15B or just put it in a ported box? If it would be in a ported box, they are really really small from what I've seen reccomended. I have one in a small box (less than 2^2 feet) right now and it works rather well.
The EVM-12L would probably be ported to keep the excursion lower. (the speaker actually has an extreemly flat response)
I would probably run 300-400 watts to the subs and the same to the mids and highs. It would be bi-amped. I'm looking for sound quality and decent volume. I do not want to be clipping the highs like many clubs do!
Hi,
Yes, definitely.
And that's a reason for you to go for something professional. Not that I think you're unable to DIY it. But as you say you're going to start a business there, you probably want to save some money by leasing reasonable gear. Instead, you would have to buy dozens of speakers (incl. woofers, midranges and drivers/horns).
People expect higher quality (for their money) than they used to a couple of years ago. I (in particular) am always impressed by how much design effort the good professional PA manufacturers invest in their designs.
Don't get me wrong Nicksmurf, I really, really, really don't want to set you off. But planing "a coffee house/concert club soon" and starting a PA design from scratch - with a couple of EV-chassis, no tweeters and no horns at hand - don't go together very well.
You could hire your gear on demand for the first couple of weeks or months and determine what (average and maximum) SPL you need, how many speakers are neccessary for good sound dispersion and what type (and number) of bass boxes fits your room acoustics.
Hope this helps.
Sebastian.
Yes, definitely.
And that's a reason for you to go for something professional. Not that I think you're unable to DIY it. But as you say you're going to start a business there, you probably want to save some money by leasing reasonable gear. Instead, you would have to buy dozens of speakers (incl. woofers, midranges and drivers/horns).
People expect higher quality (for their money) than they used to a couple of years ago. I (in particular) am always impressed by how much design effort the good professional PA manufacturers invest in their designs.
Don't get me wrong Nicksmurf, I really, really, really don't want to set you off. But planing "a coffee house/concert club soon" and starting a PA design from scratch - with a couple of EV-chassis, no tweeters and no horns at hand - don't go together very well.
You could hire your gear on demand for the first couple of weeks or months and determine what (average and maximum) SPL you need, how many speakers are neccessary for good sound dispersion and what type (and number) of bass boxes fits your room acoustics.
Hope this helps.
Sebastian.
First of all!! English is not my 1'st choice of languish, so please do not judge me on the (bad) spelling and grammar.
It’s right that for a full scale PA 2*300 to sub’s and 2*300w to mid/top are not much. But if the place you plan to open are of that kind where you normally have small local gig’s and occasionally (weekend’s and so) hire a more professional band, it will cost you an lot of moony to have a small setup hired for the normal stuff (local gigs and so).
I think you could design a pretty good set up for those event whit your EV’s and then only hire PA system for the bigger event. Many of those bands can often be hired for a little more dollars and they will bring in there own PA and sound techs.
I suggest that you design your tops , so you can hang them over the scene. Aiming towards the public. Place your sub on the floor and keep them in a ported box. Small bas horn has an awful “Honk” sound. This kind of setup are used I several places and for the normal gigs its loud enough.
Be in mind that a lead guitarist whit a FenderTwin amp prefer to have the volume from his own amp at least 110dB ( mashall staks even more ), so normally the PA system will only supply vox, some keyboard and a little drum for clarity. That’s loud enough to get concert felling to the fist 40-50 people in front of the band. The rest of the crowd will still get a god sound and be abele to talk while they drink their coffee. (I think some off them will like to drink beer, but you said it was a coffee house )
And then in the Weekend remove your sub’s and bring in the real PA.
Dalbjerg
If you cant join them—beat them
It’s right that for a full scale PA 2*300 to sub’s and 2*300w to mid/top are not much. But if the place you plan to open are of that kind where you normally have small local gig’s and occasionally (weekend’s and so) hire a more professional band, it will cost you an lot of moony to have a small setup hired for the normal stuff (local gigs and so).
I think you could design a pretty good set up for those event whit your EV’s and then only hire PA system for the bigger event. Many of those bands can often be hired for a little more dollars and they will bring in there own PA and sound techs.
I suggest that you design your tops , so you can hang them over the scene. Aiming towards the public. Place your sub on the floor and keep them in a ported box. Small bas horn has an awful “Honk” sound. This kind of setup are used I several places and for the normal gigs its loud enough.
Be in mind that a lead guitarist whit a FenderTwin amp prefer to have the volume from his own amp at least 110dB ( mashall staks even more ), so normally the PA system will only supply vox, some keyboard and a little drum for clarity. That’s loud enough to get concert felling to the fist 40-50 people in front of the band. The rest of the crowd will still get a god sound and be abele to talk while they drink their coffee. (I think some off them will like to drink beer, but you said it was a coffee house )
And then in the Weekend remove your sub’s and bring in the real PA.
Dalbjerg
If you cant join them—beat them
My school has fairly large speakers with an 18" two Mids (unsure of company) and four Motorola horns (piezo type). The sound is well, PA, and it works....okay, I guess. Okay, they sound brutal...I could build OB speakers with the same drivers, and it'll sound better but it's a school so whatever.
Anyway, we use four of these speakers and they seem to fill our auditorium fairly well, of course I'd prefer real speakers..though, I'm the only that does and that is why we have bargain-bins.
Anyway, we use four of these speakers and they seem to fill our auditorium fairly well, of course I'd prefer real speakers..though, I'm the only that does and that is why we have bargain-bins.
All I'm doing is try to top the coffee house scene and provide FREE music. So the speakers I mentioned should do the job. But for a small place do you think I should go double that size? I actually know a club by me, all they run is 4 boxes hung from the sealing. They have 2 18" subs, 12" mids, and a horn in each. Running a couple killowatts, i can't remember what exactly. That's the Oden in Cleveland Ohio. Most the coffee houses have either little powered speakers or Peavy mixer amps and cheep stuff like that.
What would be the bear minimum to keep up a band (any style), for a place that should fit 100 people? aka oversized coffee house that has food... 4 ported 15", 4 12" mids, and I still have no qlue what high frequency drivers are good for PA systems. I know who makes cheep (motarola), middle (eminence) and more expencive (EV) drivers. To state the truth, this is were most clubs are lacking. Their high frequencies sound like distorted crap. Yes I do plan to fly my (high and mid) speakers, and I do know how to design and build speaker enclosures.
QUOTE]Be in mind that a lead guitarist whit a FenderTwin amp prefer to have the volume from his own amp at least 110dB ( mashall staks even more )[/QUOTE]
Yeah I played a gig last week. I think my 50 watt cheppo yamaha amp was louded than the sound system they set up for us (I had them mike it and they told me to turn it down after the sound check).
What would be the bear minimum to keep up a band (any style), for a place that should fit 100 people? aka oversized coffee house that has food... 4 ported 15", 4 12" mids, and I still have no qlue what high frequency drivers are good for PA systems. I know who makes cheep (motarola), middle (eminence) and more expencive (EV) drivers. To state the truth, this is were most clubs are lacking. Their high frequencies sound like distorted crap. Yes I do plan to fly my (high and mid) speakers, and I do know how to design and build speaker enclosures.
QUOTE]Be in mind that a lead guitarist whit a FenderTwin amp prefer to have the volume from his own amp at least 110dB ( mashall staks even more )[/QUOTE]
Yeah I played a gig last week. I think my 50 watt cheppo yamaha amp was louded than the sound system they set up for us (I had them mike it and they told me to turn it down after the sound check).
Depending on music style, the EVM15Bs, while good speakers, may be a little lacking in power unless you get the proline (400W) versions. The 12Ls will sound nice. Appropriate horn drivers could be Eminence PSD2002, Peavey 22XT etc on CD flare. Definitely go for the 1" drivers. May be able to pick up JBL 1" drivers for good price S/H. The 12Ls will go quite high, so crossover to HF around 3kHz - this will prevent "nasties" if driven a bit hard. 4 flown top boxes and 4 sub boxes should make a great in-house PA.
Cheers
PS: Only horn-load the subs if you have enough room for large boxes, otherwise go BR. Horn subs would have advantage of greater efficiency. Alternatively, a tuned chamber band pass sub may work well.
Cheers
PS: Only horn-load the subs if you have enough room for large boxes, otherwise go BR. Horn subs would have advantage of greater efficiency. Alternatively, a tuned chamber band pass sub may work well.
Hmm, so all you actually need is a starting point on how to chose the right enclosures, what high frequency units to choose and how to (crossover) filter and amplify them?
Have a look at "UniBox" on this site: http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/boxmodel/unibox.htm
It's a free Excel spreadsheet that helps you calculate box volume and tuning, depending on the desired response. Remember that those calculations depend on accurate data, I recommend you to measure your speakers individually...
Unfortunately I can't help you on this, as I don't have representative parameters of your EV chassis.
As you need hard- and software anyway for later measuring the results of your woodwork, have a look at SpeakerWorkshop: http://www.audua.com
It's a very nice, free program to make any electrical measurements you need in the first place. You can then use it (with a measurement microphone) to evaluate your woodwork. Depending on your results here you can start to develop a crossover.
Yep. I'd recommend you to make simple enclosures, vented lows and mids, with regular shape. In your case I think it's better to have a good sound than good looking mid/high systems hanging. I say this because you probably want to upgrade soon (and can waste the cheap enclosures)
As you plan to do something for the sound quality of your house, you should have a look at Cara: http://www.cara.de/ENU/index.html
That's an online room simulation tool (follow "Service" on the left, then "Cara quick") that helps you to determine the best way to place your speakers (and listeners) in the room. If you're good
you can even google up the free demo version of Cara (to download).And confirm (using your measurement hard- and software) your simulations again.
As for amplification, you'll get an impression of your needs while you measure your speakers and boxes.
As for the Tweeters and horns, I'd recommend you to look for (good) used stuff, e.g. JBL, EV etc. on ebay. You could opt for Eminence or similar, but good used drivers and horns don't cost more. Try 1.4" drivers, 1" seems too small to combine with your midrange. Don't use a 2" even if it looks easier to combine with your midrange. A 2" compression driver would set you back to screaming, distorted highs.
Again, what's suitable (type and number of units) doesn't only depend on someone's subjective experience, but on what fit's your mid-cabs the way you build and use them (you get it, based on your measurements
).100 people doesn't sound too much, but the room acoustics are the pitfalls here. Do a quick simulation for a starter and you can see how much work's awaiting you.
I'm sorry if that sounds too complicated. But that's the way you can get over the crappy sound that you hear in places where they have no idea. Even in a starbucks my ears get offended after I've paid five bucks for a stylish interior, so I know what you mean
Just get a quick test with everything in the links (the Unibox site contains a huge amount of good speaker building software, e.g. for crossover design). The forum (and me) is here to discuss your findings.
Sorry again, it's as much amount of work as every engineer would have in your house, in case you would pay one to make a good installation
while you can actually do it with very little money.Exactly what you're going to build, starting with the material you've got. One just has to do it good enough.
Hope this helps you,
Sebastian.
It is a lot better to acheive good sound rather than good looks. I plan just to paint them black or something that matches the place and hang them either from the ceiling or wall. Cheeper and less clumzy than buying speaker stands or having them stick out of my subs on polls.
Thanks Centauri, you pretty much awnsered what I wanted to hear. And thanks SeK for that link, I downloaded it and will check it out. Looks cooler than the old dos programs I was using before! I have been actually buying all my EV speakers off of Ebay. They all work but are slightly screwed up. I might look for recone parts and recone them all myself. I've had one person warn me not to try because of the voice coil gap being so small in EVs.
Thanks,
Nick
P.S. Wonder if EVM-15b drivers are suitible for horn loaded subs? If they are, and they probably are, I guess I get to learn something new...
Thanks Centauri, you pretty much awnsered what I wanted to hear. And thanks SeK for that link, I downloaded it and will check it out. Looks cooler than the old dos programs I was using before! I have been actually buying all my EV speakers off of Ebay. They all work but are slightly screwed up. I might look for recone parts and recone them all myself. I've had one person warn me not to try because of the voice coil gap being so small in EVs.
Thanks,
Nick
P.S. Wonder if EVM-15b drivers are suitible for horn loaded subs? If they are, and they probably are, I guess I get to learn something new...
nicksmurf said:
The biggest pain with EV recone kits is that they come with spider, cone and voice coil separate (not assembled like JBL kits) which makes lining everything up and gluing rather tricky. I don't think magnet gap is really any narrower than many other brands.
The 15B does model very well in a horn. If you can stand a box around 20" x 35" at the front, then two of these boxes coupled together will easily keep up with 4 top boxes - even with same power in. Two boxes lying on side and end-to-end in centre of stage (can be part of the stage structure if you like - make sure there is plenty of sound=deadening isolation above them) on floor will pump along VERY nicely.
Cheers
Good. Actually I was more talking about the wood, e.g. MDF vs. Plywood...
Coupling (and thus sound) in the upper bass and lower mid-range will be very poor in case lows and mids are too wide apart.
I'd recommend flying two (each) left and right of the stage, just above head-height of the musicians. Aim the inner pair of tops to the front "rows" while the outer pair points to the "rear".
Much more natural than hearing the music from the ceiling, and it helps you reducing on-stage feedback.
Can you post a picture of your place?
Yeah, his very good and short answer was postet while I was typing.
While I'm short of goot 15" bass horn plans right now, I'd second Centauri's recommendations. Depending on your room (remember simulation and measurement
) you could actually gain horn extension by cleverly using the volume under or besides the stage (if there is any fixed one). In the bass region, go for high sound pressure (headroom) and low cut off (i.e. deep enough bass by using big enough horns), while in the mids and highs go for precision (by using good HF-drivers and horns and crossovers). If you have the choice to build good horns instead of just 4 vented 15" boxes, you'll gain more subjective sound quality than by building more 15" boxes. And again, they help you to reduce on-stage feedback.
No, they aren't.
But they are obsolete models. As mentioned before they are double-folded (a W-bin is a single folded horn and definitely not from EV). I has a hyperbolical horn shape. I once read that it is basically the same as the Jumbo Basshorn, scaled for 15 inch instead of 12" and cut in half for the sake of transportability (the Jumbo is 2x12").
I found a drawing of a double one on the web:http://members.aol.com/xxbase80a/jumbo.2.15/bau.html
Regards
Charles
Nice drawlings, but I can't read that language. The Jumbo 2.15 looks cool. Which kind of box would work best for frequencies 30-80 herts? I wouldn't expect to push anything below 30 herts into them. It's nice that that site has boxes already designed for that woofer. In millimeters too... I hate being an American that thinks in inches. I'm in college and all my foreign friends laugh at me.
Yeah I'm in college so these boxes won't be made for another 3 years probably. I'm just collecting information.
I'll probably be using high grade plywood. No mdf. I want them to last and not get smushed, or watterlogged by any chance. I have another stupid question. I've heard of horns moving across floors. Is this just because of bad box construction, or should I add extra weight to the bottom of the box or bolt it down securly? I'll probably do the second as theft deterrant anyhow.
I'm not letting anybody AT ALL touch that system. Maybe unless I hide limiters somewere and fuses before all the speakers.
Yeah I'm in college so these boxes won't be made for another 3 years probably. I'm just collecting information.
I'll probably be using high grade plywood. No mdf. I want them to last and not get smushed, or watterlogged by any chance. I have another stupid question. I've heard of horns moving across floors. Is this just because of bad box construction, or should I add extra weight to the bottom of the box or bolt it down securly? I'll probably do the second as theft deterrant anyhow.
2 sub drivers per side. 2 boxs in all. As long as they can fit in a van or trailer they will be fine. I guess 1kwatt amp per side. 2 evm-12L per side, 800 watts each side for midds. 2 horns on each side, probably 600 watts each side. Tri amping sounds nice and easy at this point, yet a little more expencive. Wonder how much i'm going to have to spend on monitors, I don't want to think about it now.
I'm not letting anybody AT ALL touch that system. Maybe unless I hide limiters somewere and fuses before all the speakers.
Yes, the problem with my bowling alley's Rock 'n Bowl is that they crank the amplifier way past it's abilities and into clipping all they time. Don't worry, I usually complain with "Could you turn your amp down, I like music, and loud music is cool, but distorted music is gross and breaks things like speakers and ears. I'd like to listen to the quality I have at home, Thank you."
Anyway, EV horns are of quality and are clear, just don't push your speaks. You could porbably purchase multiple horns and connect them for an appropriate load.
Anyway, EV horns are of quality and are clear, just don't push your speaks. You could porbably purchase multiple horns and connect them for an appropriate load.
It's German. Point to a specific url and I can give you a translation, in case you need one.
The LAB-Horn
I don't have personal experience with your EV drivers, as they are actually rare around here (I frequently meet RCF, B&C, etc.).
Interesting, and quite contrary to your initial post(s)...
I think, phase-accurate meant to use horns with one driver each, at least two horns per side. If you never, ever move them, either the double version could work for you.
In my opinion (and from my experience), two horns per side are an absolute minimum. They need coupling (load) via connected mouth area. OTOH, if it's just a coffe house (and no real convert hall), it could work with a total of four, too. You can easily (
) upgrade later...You'e just discovered another one of the major important ways to make a PA sound goog. Active filtering (with a dedicated setup, determined by measurement) is the only way to keep the sound (nearly) constant vs. the load time (yet not vs. spl). Using dedicated amps for the subs is a must, using another dedicated one for the highs is what improves sound quality (over the whole evening) even more.
In the same order of magnitude as on your PA itself, as you don't happen to have any speakers and amps left after finishing the PA.
And, btw., developing monitors is a whole different story, involving nearly an equal amount of work I'm afraid...
got another speaker
Ok my speaker count is going up. I got another evm-15b yesterday. Now I just wish I had an enclosure and a killowatt amp. I'd probably blow my window out of my dorm room.
I'm going to look for some more modern low frequency horn designs. The ones that are ported might give me a better spl at sub frequencies. But may also promote cone distruction.
- Nick
Ok my speaker count is going up. I got another evm-15b yesterday. Now I just wish I had an enclosure and a killowatt amp. I'd probably blow my window out of my dorm room.
I'm going to look for some more modern low frequency horn designs. The ones that are ported might give me a better spl at sub frequencies. But may also promote cone distruction.
- Nick
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