Tweeter crossed at 1khz

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brunogiovs

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Joined 2014
#1
Hello , I have plans to build a speaker with my pair of Satori MW16P-4.
So I'm shopping for a tweeter to go with my Satori.

Do you guys recommend a tweeter that will be crossed at 1khz on with a active crossover? my budget is ~70 USD

I have this one in mind : Dayton Audio RS28F-4 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter


Thanks
 
#2
I'd cross it a bit higher if I where you... around 2kHz and at 18db/oct.

It won't allow you to play at higher levels if you cross it at 1 kHz and the resonance frequency of the tweeter might(will) also cause audible problems.
 
#12
AllenB said:
The waveguide shouldn't be used to extend the response of the tweeter in any case. It will help by allowing the drivers to match dispersion for a higher frequency of crossover. Two birds, so to speak.
Click to expand...

I disagree- waveguide loading nets higher efficiency and does allow for better SPL handling at lower freqs- for a given SPL/power input you can cross over lower. How much lower is a design decision, but so long as you're achieving directivity control, the waveguide loading allows the lower XO point.

One does need to consider how much you're asking of the tweeter below cutoff, naturally.
 
#13
An electrostatic tweeter could be made, does any one have good theoretical reasons for objecting to a low cross over, as I have been toying with the idea recently and am thinking of using Aurum Cantus AC130-f1 or a Peerless SDS-P830656 as the bass driver for a sealed mini monitor with a 700 - 1khz cross over maybe lower.
 
#14
As has been mentioned, a waveguide would be required for either the wavecor or dayton tweeter, and a 48db/octave or steeper slope digital crossover would probably make 1k doable though perhaps still not recommended or optimal by any stretch.. maybe 1.2-1.6 being a bit more realistic.

The other thing that has not yet been mentioned is that if your tweeter is in a waveguide you really should choose your woofer or mid-bass driver and the crossover points/slopes between the two of them to provide as much directivity match up and smooth power response as possible. With the Satori driver you mentioned (which is what I use in my own system by the way, but only from 200-800 Hz) does not begin to really narrow in directivity to match a typical waveguide until you get up closer to 2kHz so I am not so sure you get the performance you are looking for.

Folks who want to cross a tweeter really low are usually looking for the greater clarity and dispersion they can't get out of their woofer or mid-bass, with the Satori, I would argue you don't really have that problem. With such low inductance and distortion along with rave reviews around detail retrieval and musicality, there is nothing to hide from the Satori as it is quite happy and will deliver great results up to and perhaps beyond 2kHz.

I would highly recommend you look at Jeff Bagby's satori monitor design and consider the Satori tweeter, crossed actively you could go lower than Jeff did and perhaps get a little closer to ideal power response between the two drivers but reviews of Jeff's design indicate there is nothing wanting at all except for low bass. So anyways, with a Satori mid-bass you could choose between a bunch of great tweeters that would be perfectly fine crossing anywhere between 1.5 and 2kHz without a waveguide so long as steep digital active filters were in play.
 
#15
badman said:
I disagree- waveguide loading nets higher efficiency and does allow for better SPL handling at lower freqs- for a given SPL/power input you can cross over lower. How much lower is a design decision, but so long as you're achieving directivity control, the waveguide loading allows the lower XO point.

One does need to consider how much you're asking of the tweeter below cutoff, naturally.
Click to expand...
I agree with you. I intended my comments to be taken within the context of the thread. I can see I wasn't clear about that.
 
#16
owenhamburg said:
An electrostatic tweeter could be made, does any one have good theoretical reasons for objecting to a low cross over, as I have been toying with the idea recently and am thinking of using Aurum Cantus AC130-f1 or a Peerless SDS-P830656 as the bass driver for a sealed mini monitor with a 700 - 1khz cross over maybe lower.
Click to expand...

You could use a small 2.5in aluminum full range driver, which would let you easily cross at 500Hz to 1kHz. The AC130F1 is an excellent smooth driver and easy to integrate. I like its sound very much although in a sealed cabinet, it produces excessive harmonic distortion. I have tried several units and all seem to have unacceptable 6% HD when pushed below 100Hz at moderate 80dB sound levels. It may be the smaller volume I was using, but one unit did not have the ecessive distortion. I kept returning the units just to find out the one without the HD (or lower at 3%) was the fluke.

Here is an example of the AC130F1 and a Fountek FR58EX in a FAST. Sounds very nice, and since both drivers are smooth and wide bandwidth, I was able to use a first order XO for a transient perfect linear phase speaker.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/280331-fr58ex-ac130f1-micro-fast.html

506253d1443345174-fr56ex-ac130f1-micro-fast-fr56ex-ac130f1-fast-01.png


I crossed at 1.5k because I was after transient perfect 1st order XO, but you could easily do 2nd order or 4th order at 500Hz just fine.

Having said that, a planar or pleated tweeter like a B&G that can go to 700Hz can certainly work.

XO:
506254d1443345174-fr56ex-ac130f1-micro-fast-fr56ex-ac130f1-fast-xo.png


Phase:
506256d1443345174-fr56ex-ac130f1-micro-fast-fr56ex-ac130f1-fast-phase.png


Step:
506255d1443345174-fr56ex-ac130f1-micro-fast-fr56ex-ac130f1-fast-ir-sr.png
 
#17
esgigt said:
the article confirms my objection to a 1kHz x-over... it's too low.. not even a waveguide can fix that.
Click to expand...

Note that the B&C 8BG51 is 8 ohm with an efficiency of 92 dB 1W/1m, and will absorb 250W.

RS28A is 4 ohm with an efficiency of 90.4dB 2.83V/1m, and can take 100W.

IOW, the 8BG51 is about 4.6dB more efficient than the RS28A, and can take over 3dB more power.

Bruno’s Satori MW16P-4 is 4 ohm with an efficiency of 90.5dB 2.83V/1m, and tops out at 60W.

Much closer to the RS28A than the B&C 8BG51.

The outcome will also depend on how close Bruno listens to his speakers, and how loud his listening levels are. The closer his listening position, and the lower his listening levels, the more likely it is that he will be successful.

I suggest it worth trying to match the MW16P-4 at 1kHz with the RS28A, using a suitable waveguide. Since Bruno’s crossover is active, he can nudge the crossover frequency up by 100 or 200Hz if in practice the RS28A shows signs of stress.

jonathan
 
#18
Bruno, if you are considering any of the Wavecor tweeters, I suggest the TW030WA11/12 or TW030WA13_14.

Although the diaphragms are similar to the TW030WA05~8, the TW030WA11/12 has an integrated waveguide that adds substantially to its lower-end performance and confers about 2dB higher efficiency.

The TW030WA13_14 has appreciably greater stroke (+/-0.65mm as opposed to +/-0.4mm for the TW030WA05~8) and has about 1.5dB greater efficiency.

Or put the TW030WA13_14 inside a waveguide (smile).

hth, jonathan
 
#20
Greggo said:
With the Satori, I would argue you don't really have that problem (wanting greater clarity and dispersion than their woofer or mid-bass provides).
Click to expand...

At least in my experience, the Satori MW16P-4 can still benefit from the higher level of resolution obtainable by crossing over to a suitable tweeter (or tweeter-and-waveguide combination) at a frequency of around 1~1.2kHz.

jonathan
 
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